What did Morrissey mean by 'the fourth sex'?

[CrystalGeezer]

No. I was saying Morrisey's fourth sex was about sexual orientation. I also acknowledged he adopted feminine symbols... the beads and the flowers. And said he plays with gender in his lyrics.

What I also said is that he is anatomically male and glad to be. And has a masculine gender identity. And does not want to be a woman. Nor does he feel like a woman in a man's suit.

That is all I wish to say. This is becoming redundant. If anyone else wants to chime in or poke holes in our theories, great.

But I need a breather from this, for now.

I never said he wanted to be a woman. I'm saying many of his lyrics and mannerisms point to him acknowledging he is a woman in a gorgeous man's body. He makes a sexy as f*** man too and he knows it. He's both.

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I think a lot of problems come when Americans start to interpret his lyrics with an American world view but how can you not, right? You're missing most of the gags though.

More than likely this is was a quick quip and nothing more.

Surprise is fundamental in telling a joke. We expect him to sing YMCA instead he says YWCA. Geddit? Funny. Don't give the line too much credit.

The drag thing again has a different take in the UK. It's not such a big deal here. Have you ever seen Monty Python?

But he's singing about being 16, clumsy and shy, nodding towards the sexual exploits that accompany coming-of-age...yet he finds himself in the YWCA, because that's where his soul is comfortable. HALF of the PERSON he is belongs in the YWCA, amongst women.

 

[Iona Mink]

But he's singing about being 16, clumsy and shy, nodding towards the sexual exploits that accompany coming-of-age...yet he finds himself in the YWCA, because that's where his soul is comfortable. HALF of the PERSON he is belongs in the YWCA, amongst women.

OK Crystal.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

OK Crystal.

I could be wrong. You make an excellent case for the drag being a British thing, maybe I'm missing a ton of British modifiers.

 

[Anonymous]

You, having a trade school degree in font, explains your inability grasp gender theory.

Last week you were angrily labeling posts you couldn't understand as "postmodern." Now this? My, how we pivot.

Anyway, I should hope even a maid at a bed and breakfast could understand good ol' Mozzer...

 

[CrystalGeezer]

I've always interpreted Unlovable as Morrissey's nod to Taoism. The yin and yang is a duality,

"Yin is female and yang is male. They fit together as two parts of a whole. The male principle was equated with the sun: active, bright, and shining; the female principle corresponds to the moon: passive, shaded, and reflective. Male toughness was balanced by female gentleness, male action and initiative by female endurance and need for completion." wiki

Yin is black, the blackness he feels on the inside is his feminine nature peeking through and he's at a loss for words to describe it beyond it "feeling strange."

This song's a huge nod to his nature of being the fourth sex.



Also any song he sings falsetto in, which is MANY.

 

[Anonymous]

N

That is all I wish to say. This is becoming redundant. If anyone else wants to chime in or poke holes in our theories, great.

But I need a breather from this, for now.

You can't argue with crazy people who get off on winding you up, Realitybites. Just ignore her. See the SIGNS!

 

[Girlmostlikely]

Just sexual... meaning we all have the same sexual needs. Categories and labels are unnecessary and harmful. They segregate us, separate us, place us into tribes. They make us claim... embrace difference where none really needs to be. This difference is a social construct and not innate. Though he was talking about what we now commonly refer to as sexual orientation. Back then, it wasn't really a term that was widely used outside of academia. So Moz's fourth sex, is really a fourth sexual orientation... or the absence of one.

This is what I always thought Morrissey meant. I would think, 'how is this different from being bisexual, really?', but I think the difference is not seeing a difference between men and women, just seeing people. Therefore one (such as Morrissey) would be attracted to a person regardless of their sex.

 

[Irregular Regular]

A million years ago, the late Tony Wilson described Moz as being a woman trapped in a man's body.
Morrissey, clearly displeased, soon retaliated by describing Tony Wilson as a man trapped in a pig's body.

But...

Did he really mean Tony Wilson?

 

[realitybites]

Last week you were angrily labeling posts you couldn't understand as "postmodern." Now this? My, how we pivot.

Nobody understands obscurantist, jargon-filled postmodern discourse. Not even postmodernists. I aim for clarity when I write. I want to be understood. The author of the posts I called into question does not. Because clarity would expose the lack of content.

But ya, one doesn't need a degree in gender studies to talk shop. But one should at least understand the concepts one is discussing. Reading a few books would help.

 

[realitybites]

A million years ago, the late Tony Wilson described Moz as being a woman trapped in a man's body.
Morrissey, clearly displeased, soon retaliated by describing Tony Wilson as a man trapped in a pig's body.

But...

Did he really mean Tony Wilson?

 

[Anonymous]

If I wanted to know what Morrissey meant by "fourth sex" I would have looked for the original interview.

http://foreverill.com/interviews/1983/sounds1.htm

Although it's not 100% clear what he is talking about, it doesn't seem to be to do with his own gender identity as compared to other people, but to do with erasing gender differences. So, a blank-slate interpretation of gender, which also fits in with other quotes of his, such as "people are just sexual". The "fourth sex" seems to be an aspiration rather than a type.

Wearing women's jewelry was part of the Smiths aesthetic in the 83-84 period. Johnny used to wear a plastron necklace.

 

[Peterb]

If I wanted to know what Morrissey meant by "fourth sex" I would have looked for the original interview.

http://foreverill.com/interviews/1983/sounds1.htm

Although it's not 100% clear what he is talking about, it doesn't seem to be to do with his own gender identity as compared to other people, but to do with erasing gender differences. So, a blank-slate interpretation of gender, which also fits in with other quotes of his, such as "people are just sexual". The "fourth sex" seems to be an aspiration rather than a type.

Wearing women's jewelry was part of the Smiths aesthetic in the 83-84 period. Johnny used to wear a plastron necklace.

I'm sure even he is 100% sure of what he was talking about. Lets face it, he is a bit of an airhead.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

But ya, one doesn't need a degree in gender studies to talk shop. But one should at least understand the concepts one is discussing. Reading a few books would help.

This is the battle cry of the pseudo-intellectual. You don't want to discuss gender studies either, you don't want to discuss anything. You want to sound smart. Wearing makeup is a "feminist thang" was your last stellar conclusion, I'd back off on calling out any poster's syllabus on a given topic before your naivete on the subject becomes any more transparent.

 

[realitybites]

If I wanted to know what Morrissey meant by "fourth sex" I would have looked for the original interview.

http://foreverill.com/interviews/1983/sounds1.htm

Although it's not 100% clear what he is talking about, it doesn't seem to be to do with his own gender identity as compared to other people, but to do with erasing gender differences. So, a blank-slate interpretation of gender, which also fits in with other quotes of his, such as "people are just sexual". The "fourth sex" seems to be an aspiration rather than a type.

Wearing women's jewelry was part of the Smiths aesthetic in the 83-84 period. Johnny used to wear a plastron necklace.

I posted the link to that interview a few posts back, #13.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

A million years ago, the late Tony Wilson described Moz as being a woman trapped in a man's body.
Morrissey, clearly displeased, soon retaliated by describing Tony Wilson as a man trapped in a pig's body.

But...

Did he really mean Tony Wilson?

Pigs are pretty intelligent.

 

[realitybites]

This is the battle cry of the pseudo-intellectual. You don't want to discuss gender studies either, you don't want to discuss anything. You want to sound smart. Wearing makeup is a "feminist thang" was your last stellar conclusion, I'd back off on calling out any poster's syllabus on a given topic before your naivete on the subject becomes any more transparent.

I refuse to continue to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. That is what I said, in a nutshell. You are boring and uneducated. It is a waste of time to debate you. Period.

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You can't argue with crazy people who get off on winding you up, Realitybites. Just ignore her. See the SIGNS!

But of course.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

I refuse to continue to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. That is what I said, in a nutshell. You are boring and uneducated. It is a waste of time to debate you. Period.

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But of course.

Did you delete this and repost it?

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If I wanted to know what Morrissey meant by "fourth sex" I would have looked for the original interview.

http://foreverill.com/interviews/1983/sounds1.htm

Although it's not 100% clear what he is talking about, it doesn't seem to be to do with his own gender identity as compared to other people, but to do with erasing gender differences. So, a blank-slate interpretation of gender, which also fits in with other quotes of his, such as "people are just sexual". The "fourth sex" seems to be an aspiration rather than a type.

Wearing women's jewelry was part of the Smiths aesthetic in the 83-84 period. Johnny used to wear a plastron necklace.

While the question refers to the original interview and it's insightful to read and reference it, shouldn't we be turning to his current output to help ultimately define what the fourth sex he's the prophet of is turning out to represent? I'd be mortified if my words 30 years ago were used to define my ideas today. I'm on a job so distracted and this sentence seems garbled but you know what I mean?

 

[Chip]

I posted the link to that interview a few posts back, #13.

I thought there was another interview with Rolling Stone where Morrissey talked about the fourth sex, you know the one that purported he admitted he was basically gay to which Morrissey said he was surprised to learn this?

 

[realitybites]

I thought there was another interview with Rolling Stone where Morrissey talked about the fourth sex, you know the one that purported he admitted he was basically gay to which Morrissey said he was surprised to learn this?

Here is that Rolling Stone interview.

Excerpt: "It's what most people are motivated by, whether they're involved in it or not," he says. And though it would appear that his is largely a homosexual viewpoint, he explains that it's really not that simple. "The sexes have been too easily defined. People are so rigidly locked into these two little categories. I don't know anybody who is absolutely, exclusively heterosexual. It limits people's potential in so many areas. I think we should slap down these barriers."​

This lends further credence to my position that he was talking about sexual orientation, not gender identity. They are two separate things.


He denies saying he was gay: here.

Excerpt: Yes. The interview I just did with Rolling Stone begins: "Morrissey is a man who says he's gay," which upset me because of course I didn't say anything of the kind. People make assumptions but there's no point complaining about it. I came into this business willingly and I know the pitfalls so I accept them. At the end of the day, sexual terms just segregate people, it's all monotonous and an insult to their individuality. I don't mind effeminacy, it's better than being a bottle-it-up type or a Tetley Bitter Man. Men who drop their defences don't necessarily march about the street crying and reciting Wordsworth.​

I would have to agree with him. He never stated that he was gay in that RS interview.

 

[satchmo76]

Gay is a relatively recent concept in human history. Shakespeare seems to have loved men and women without needing to describe himself as bisexual.

Secondly, Morrissey has always approached sex from the viewpoint of art, which transcends sex.

Thirdly, there's the precedent of Bowie, who spent the seventies wearing different masks without ever becoming fixed in any of them. Mozza and Bowie are the ultimate role-players, and maybe there's no "real self" except those roles?