What did Morrissey mean by 'the fourth sex'?

[satchmo76]

I understand that in gender studies you can find societies where there are four or five genders (the Hijras or Navajo, for example) but I'm not sure if that's what Mozza meant back in 1983. I understood to him at the time to mean a person who chooses not to have a fixed sexuality but to float around between identities. I do recall him saying something like, "there's no such thing as homosexual/heterosexual/bisexual, there's just sexual".

Another interpretation is that it's someone who is celibate, but personally I've always been skeptical about Mozza's claims to celibacy. So many temptations, surely he fell off the wagon a few times? It also seems to me that his early songs are so charged with sexuality (Handsome Devil) that it's hard to take seriously his claim that he was totally abstinent.

 

[realitybites]

I understand that in gender studies you can find societies where there are four or five genders (the Hijras or Navajo, for example) but I'm not sure if that's what Mozza meant back in 1983. I understood to him at the time to mean a person who chooses not to have a fixed sexuality but to float around between identities. I do recall him saying something like, "there's no such thing as homosexual/heterosexual/bisexual, there's just sexual".

Another interpretation is that it's someone who is celibate, but personally I've always been skeptical about Mozza's claims to celibacy. So many temptations, surely he fell off the wagon a few times? It also seems to me that his early songs are so charged with sexuality (Handsome Devil) that it's hard to take seriously his claim that he was totally abstinent.

Just sexual... meaning we all have the same sexual needs. Categories and labels are unnecessary and harmful. They segregate us, separate us, place us into tribes. They make us claim... embrace difference where none really needs to be. This difference is a social construct and not innate. Though he was talking about what we now commonly refer to as sexual orientation. Back then, it wasn't really a term that was widely used outside of academia. So Moz's fourth sex, is really a fourth sexual orientation... or the absence of one.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

He's a woman wearing a man's suit who identifies with womanhood and manhood equally. It's not a question of WHO he chooses to have sex with, but with what sex he identifies with, which is both.


And for some crazy...

Also he owns a cosmic house and in that house he does CHORES. Sea horses, (or c-horse) are different from most other animals in the animal kingdom in that the female deposits her eggs into a pouch in the male's body and he carries the babies after fertilizing them. Morrissey is a sea horse bearing the burden of a ginormous mind baby in addition to being a man doing the woman's work. Everyone is so quick to call him a hypocrite when actually they're pointing out he's a hippocampus. And he doesn't excel at swimming the cosmic sea.

 

[realitybites]

I think Morrissey has a masculine gender identity and is not at all a woman in a man's suit. He is all male. He does identify with women, however, because he is in touch with all facets of what it means to be a human being.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

I think Morrissey has a masculine gender identity and it not at all a woman in a man's suit. He is all male. He does identify with women, however, because he is in touch with all facets of what it means to be a human being.

Then you are not paying attention to the lyrics.

 

[realitybites]

Then you are not paying attention to the lyrics.

I'm sure you are seeing things that aren't there. Par for the course.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

I'm sure you are seeing things that aren't there. Par for the course.

Okay, I'll start out simple so you can follow along.

Why did he book himself into the YWCA?

 

[Irregular Regular]

Okay, I'll start out simple so you can follow along.

Why did he book himself into the YWCA?

To hide himself away from you in the most unlikely place?

 

[realitybites]

Okay, I'll start out simple so you can follow along.

Why did he book himself into the YWCA?

He is playing with gender identity. Making his songs more relatable at the same time. More universal. The narrator is not boxed in as male or female. It doesn't mean he, as Morrissey the man, feels he is a woman in a man's body. He is not transgendered. Maybe you are. So you claim. I have never heard Morrissey state anything in his lyrics or interviews that gives any credence to your theory. I think what we have here is a case of wishful thinking. We see what we want to see. Believing is seeing. You have this down to a science.

Morrissey played with gender because he was reading quite a bit of feminist theory at the beginning of his lyrical career. Gender was, and still is, a huge topic in FT. Also, it was cleverly original... making him stand out from the crowd. Especially in a very macho climate of punk, lads, and guitar-driven rock and roll. He crafted an image. We embraced it. Morrissey may be gay, bi, straight, or not wanting a label. But he has a masculine gender identity.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

He is playing with gender identity. Making his songs more relatable at the same time. More universal. The narrator is not boxed in as male or female. It doesn't mean he, as Morrissey the man, feels he is a woman in a man's body. He is not transgendered. Maybe you are. So you claim. I have never heard Morrissey state anything in his lyrics or interviews that gives any credence to your theory. I think what we have here is a case of wishful thinking. We see what we want to see. Believing is seeing. You have this down to a science.

Morrissey played with gender because he was reading quite a bit of feminist theory at the beginning of his lyrical career. Gender was, and still is, a huge topic in FT. Also, it was cleverly original... making him stand out from the crowd. Especially in a very macho climate of punk, lads, and guitar-driven rock and roll. He crafted an image. We embraced it. Morrissey may be gay, bi, straight, or not wanting a label. But he has a masculine gender identity.

Given you can't separate ME out of half your argument tells me this discussion is pointless, but yeah, lets assume he's wearing beads and women's blouses because of some books he read and NOT support your argument with any of his own words.

 

[realitybites]

Given you can't separate ME out of half your argument tells me this discussion is pointless, but yeah, lets assume he's wearing beads and women's blouses because of some books he read and NOT support your argument with any of his own words.

No, the problem is that you can't separate yourself from the argument. You have no ability to be objective. You are seeing everything through your transgendered lenses. That was my point. That was the relevance of bringing you in. You already were in... full throttle.

Ad hominem up ahead... You are not exactly the most objective, analytical thinker around here. I think you fail to understand the difference between culturally constructed symbols for gender i.e. beads and flowers... and gender identity. Moz may adopt feminine symbols. It doesn't mean he wants to be anatomically female. I think he likes having a penis, and a quiff, and a strong jawline. And your theory thins with time... he is more masculine these days. Is he not? Maybe he hasn't been reading feminist theory lately? And feels there is no longer a need to be a cultural role model/spokesperson for gender parity? You, having a trade school degree in font, explains your inability grasp gender theory.

But you try. Boy do you try.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

No, the problem is that you can't separate yourself from the argument. You have no ability to be objective. You are seeing everything through your transgendered lenses. That was my point. That was the relevance of bringing you in. You already were in... full throttle.

Ad hominem up ahead... You are not exactly the most objective, analytical thinker around here. I think you fail to understand the difference between culturally constructed symbols for gender i.e. beads and flowers... and gender identity. Moz may adopt feminine symbols. It doesn't mean he wants to be anatomically female. I think he likes having a penis, and a quiff, and a strong jawline. And your theory thins with time... he is more masculine these days. Is he not? Maybe he hasn't been reading feminist theory lately? And feels there is no longer a need to be a cultural role model/spokesperson for gender parity? You, having a trade school degree in font, explains your inability grasp gender theory.

But you try. Boy do you try.

You posed your theory. I posed my theory. Then you said my theory was wrong BECAUSE I SAID IT. THat is what happened.

Now, I never said he wanted to be a woman, I said he was a woman in a man's suit. He identifies with both. If you think I think he wants to go down to the clinic and have his ding dong chopped off, you are reading between the lines, my theory of the definition of the fourth sex is that it is like being a woman within the body of a man. He embraces both because he IS both.

Stop attacking me and listen to my theory.

Or listen to this song.

 

[realitybites]

You posed your theory. I posed my theory. Then you said my theory was wrong BECAUSE I SAID IT. THat is what happened.

Now, I never said he wanted to be a woman, I said he was a woman in a man's suit. He identifies with both. If you think I think he wants to go down to the clinic and have his ding dong chopped off, you are reading between the lines, my theory of the definition of the fourth sex is that it is like being a woman within the body of a man. He embraces both because he IS both.

Stop attacking me and listen to my theory.

Or listen to this song.

I just listened to that song last night. Am on a Moz binge.

Well, any guy can put on a dress. Your theory isn't really a theory, is it? It explains nothing. You are remarking upon his attire. His lyrics. But what does he really feel? You don't know. Not all lyrics are autobiographical. In fact, most, after the first album or two (coming of age poetry put to song) aren't.


The fourth sex, as I understand from Moz's description in this interview, is about sexual orientation. That was my claim. Your claim is that it is about gender identity. But what we have been arguing about is not which one of those things he was talking about, now was it? We got sidetracked. And started debating about what it means to be transgendered.

So, to summarize, the fourth sex is essentially, just being sexual... a SEXual being. Not a GENDERed being.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

We got sidetracked.

No, you got sidetracked by yammering about me seeing what I want to see. Pretty rich coming from someone who thinks this man is an Atheist.

Lets pretend the Fourth Sex is NOT about gender identity and just about sex, that he's been the prophet of sex for all these years writing songs about yearning and striking out. Great prophet, sign me up for his kama sutra class, please.

 

[realitybites]

No, you got sidetracked by yammering about me seeing what I want to see. Pretty rich coming from someone who thinks this man is an Atheist.

Lets pretend the Fourth Sex is NOT about gender identity and just about sex, that he's been the prophet of sex for all these years writing songs about yearning and striking out. Great prophet, sign me up for his kama sutra class, please.

Hey, if his lyrics are about gender to you, and believing this helps you get up in the morning, I'm all for it. Whatever works. Only Moz knows how he really thinks and feels... and what he meant by the fourth sex. I wonder if he even remembers uttering that statement? Perhaps not. It was so 80s. Ya know.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

Hey, if his lyrics are about gender to you, and believing this helps you get up in the morning, I'm all for it. Whatever works. Only Moz knows how he really thinks and feels... and what he meant by the fourth sex. I wonder if he even remembers uttering that statement? Perhaps not. It was so 80s. Ya know.

I know that we can only work with what he gives us. And lately he has given us a performance piece to study that most people gloss over in a race to identify the background picture, order the setlist or bitch about the matching t-shirts the band has to wear. But nobody theorizes why? regarding the entirety of the performance. I suspect the band wears matching shirts so that they represent a unit, an extension of the artist himself. He is presenting himself as the band to us on his stage. It comes as no surprise that one of his band for much of the last few tours has been in drag. Morrissey identifies with man as woman and has Boz do his dirty work because Morrissey being essentially woman, did not appreciate the response the Paris video received even though he identifies with the concept of woman within man. I could be overanalyzing the last bit there but I know the f***ers on here were cruel about his makeup. Still, he marches along and includes the element in his performance piece.

 

[realitybites]

I know that we can only work with what he gives us. And lately he has given us a performance piece to study that most people gloss over in a race to identify the background picture, order the setlist or bitch about the matching t-shirts the band has to wear. But nobody theorizes why? regarding the entirety of the performance. I suspect the band wears matching shirts so that they represent a unit, an extension of the artist himself. He is presenting himself as the band to us on his stage. It comes as no surprise that one of his band for much of the last few tours has been in drag. Morrissey identifies with man as woman and has Boz do his dirty work because Morrissey being essentially woman, did not appreciate the response the Paris video received even though he identifies with the concept of woman within man. I could be overanalyzing the last bit there but I know the f***ers on here were cruel about his makeup. Still, he marches along and includes the element in his performance piece.

Nothin' wrong with a man in makeup. News anchors, mimes, clowns, and actors wear it... they are performers. As is Moz. One doesn't need to be a transvestite or transgendered to dabble in a little mascara. But if Moz wants to wear makeup because he wants to embrace some feminine thang, fine by me.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

Nothin' wrong with a man in makeup. News anchors, mimes, clowns, and actors wear it... they are performers. As is Moz. One doesn't need to be a transvestite or transgendered to dabble in a little mascara. But if Moz wants to wear makeup because he wants to embrace some feminine thang, fine by me.

Feminine thang? Are you joking? Referring to your earlier comment that my interest in feminine theory couldn;t be supported by my trade school education, I have a degree from a university and I'm done pretending this is a discussion. It's not.

 

[realitybites]

Feminine thang? Are you joking? Referring to your earlier comment that my interest in feminine theory couldn;t be supported by my trade school education, I have a degree from a university and I'm done pretending this is a discussion. It's not.

No. I was saying Morrisey's fourth sex was about sexual orientation. I also acknowledged he adopted feminine symbols... the beads and the flowers. And said he plays with gender in his lyrics.

What I also said is that he is anatomically male and glad to be. And has a masculine gender identity. And does not want to be a woman. Nor does he feel like a woman in a man's suit.

That is all I wish to say. This is becoming redundant. If anyone else wants to chime in or poke holes in our theories, great.

But I need a breather from this, for now.

 

[Iona Mink]

Okay, I'll start out simple so you can follow along.

Why did he book himself into the YWCA?

I think a lot of problems come when Americans start to interpret his lyrics with an American world view but how can you not, right? You're missing most of the gags though.

More than likely this is was a quick quip and nothing more.

Surprise is fundamental in telling a joke. We expect him to sing YMCA instead he says YWCA. Geddit? Funny. Don't give the line too much credit.

The drag thing again has a different take in the UK. It's not such a big deal here. Have you ever seen Monty Python?