For Kirstie. (everyone else: boredom alert...don't bother reading)

[Copeland]

Kirstie,
I have recently found myself responding to posts I should have avoided, but I am too weak to resist doing it again here. You have recently made several comments derogatory toward America/Americans in general. Here are my thoughts:

slavery - don't you think we've borne this cross long enough? I wasn't responsible for it and neither were the previous four generations of mine. Also, we have more than catered to "offended" African Americans who have never remotely felt the stigma of discrimination, much less slavery. And because of Affirmative Action, many people are being denied admission to colleges they otherwise would be accepted to. Show me the fairness in that. It's discrimination in reverse.

Bush - you wonder how he could have been elected, I'll tell you: luckily there were enough intelligent Americans not willing to vote for Gorebot. We need common sense and professionalism in America, not a corrupt opportunist. Gore would be wetting himself right now over China.

The Environment- the situation is not nearly as bad as you have been led to believe. And Koyoto? Every US Senator except two voted against it well before Bush took office. Its problem is that it enforces harsh restrictions on American industry, while setting no standards on other nations. Again, show me the fairness.

Our culture - Americans invented rock music and jazz. The rest of the world should be grateful.

WWII / Japan - we bombed them because they were slaughtering our men in the Pacific (including my grandfather). It's called war, and it's not supposed to be pleasant. Hopefully it will never happen again.

In short, I am very suspicious of peopole who sharply criticize the country in which they choose to live. Everyone has the option of leaving anytime they wish. That's freedom, and that's why people are beating down the borders to get into our country. If you genuinely hate America, as you have claimed, I'd be glad to show you the door.

 

[Kirstie]

>You have recently made several comments derogatory toward
> America/Americans in general. Here are my thoughts:

towards America yes but not towards specific Americans. In one of my posts specifically, I agree with laura in that not all americans eat at mc.donalds, etc. and I even point out that there are places in America where better culture is more predominant.

> slavery - don't you think we've borne this cross long enough? I
> wasn't responsible for it and neither were the previous four
> generations of mine.

well actually no I don't. Not when people continue to be racist. We must still be reminded of what we have done wrong in order to make sure it does not happen again. I don't know where you are living now but I think southern attitudes (in GENERAL) are a bit more racist. I say this because of several experiences that have been related to me in which people were discriminated against because they were Black.

And
> because of Affirmative Action, many people are being denied
> admission to colleges they otherwise would be accepted to. Show
> me the fairness in that. It's discrimination in reverse.

I am inclined to agree with you somewhat on this issue. It should go more by grades than race. However, it also is highly based on SAT scores, which are biased towards whites anyhow so maybe it all evens out? (atleast probably more than what you might think)

> Bush - you wonder how he could have been elected, I'll tell you:
> luckily there were enough intelligent Americans not willing to
> vote for Gorebot. We need common sense and professionalism in
> America, not a corrupt opportunist. Gore would be wetting
> himself right now over China.

I disagree.

> The Environment- the situation is not nearly as bad as you have
> been led to believe. And Koyoto? Every US Senator except two
> voted against it well before Bush took office. Its problem is
> that it enforces harsh restrictions on American industry, while
> setting no standards on other nations. Again, show me the
> fairness.

I disagree. You will never convince me that Bush did the right thing by turning down Kyoto and how about allowing drilling in Alaska. Come on! Please see the whole picture here.

> Our culture - Americans invented rock music and jazz. The rest
> of the world should be grateful.

I never said America was all bad but we do have our low points.

> WWII / Japan - we bombed them because they were slaughtering our
> men in the Pacific (including my grandfather). It's called war,
> and it's not supposed to be pleasant. Hopefully it will never
> happen again.

Yes and my statement was that we should have gotten involved alot sooner when we knew what was going on in Germany. I never disagreed with your statement.

> In short, I am very suspicious of peopole who sharply criticize
> the country in which they choose to live.

yes well I'll come clean-I'm a spy living right in upstate NY. (JUST KIDDING) hehe. I'd definitely be suspicious. Seriously now I never said there weren't good things about America but it is only natural in a discussion to discuss and state opinions.

Everyone has the
> option of leaving anytime they wish. That's freedom, and that's
> why people are beating down the borders to get into our country.

I think alot of people have regretted that decision.

> If you genuinely hate America, as you have claimed, I'd be glad
> to show you the door.

I never said I genuinely hated America. I think you are letting your own personal feelings let you infer things that aren't there. One can criticise without hating. Although, I do see problems with it and honestly would not mind leaving at times. But thanks for the escort offer.

Kirstie

 

[Copeland]

The return...

> Not when people continue to be racist.

There will always be a small minority of racists. The rest of the country shouldn't be dragged through the mud because of it.

> However, it also is highly
> based on SAT scores, which are biased towards whites

Absolutely wrong. Blacks go to school for free just like white people. We all have the same opportunity to learn and apply ourselves. The SAT score you recieve is an indication of the effort you put into it.

> I disagree. You will never convince me that Bush did the right
> thing by turning down Kyoto and how about allowing drilling in
> Alaska. Come on! Please see the whole picture here.

We are talking about using only 2000 acres of an area the size of South Carolina! You would change your mind on this the second your electricity is shut off due to lack of energy resources. Just ask a Californian.

> I think alot of people have regretted that decision.

Good, they can go back home.

 

[Bertrand]

Not to butt in....

> We are talking about using only 2000 acres of an area the size
> of South Carolina! You would change your mind on this the second
> your electricity is shut off due to lack of energy resources.
> Just ask a Californian.

An area that has enough crude to run every car in the U.S. for five months. What's the point of drilling for that little oil? To put money in the pocket of the oil companies - i.e. Bush's old Texas cronies.

People need to realize that the age of petroleum is coming to an end. Oil production in the America peaked in 1948. It will peak in the Middle East within ten years. It's a finite resource that is almost gone. The sooner we stop trying to find more oil and instead turn our efforts to sustainable energy sources and a sustainable lifestyle the better; especially for Americans, who are the most oil dependent people in the world.

And I'm speaking both as a Californian who has gone thru blackouts and as a facilities manager responsible for insuring 3000 people have the resources they need to do their jobs. 75% percent of the problems in my state are caused by a poorly written law and the stupidity of the voters who fell for the power companies campaign for it.

 

[Mr. So & So]

Re: The return...

Ciopelan, you are Jerry Falwell in disguise.

 

[WorkingGirl]

Copeland.

Unfortunately you decided that you did not want to debate any of the issues I raised except that old cheshunt that the world only likes the Americans when they are willing to be fight for them.

You decided that you would instead, turn your attentions to somemone of your own country, willing to express a different opinion to your own.
How very Stalinist of you.

In regard to the points you raised.

The black population were being discriminated against by AMERICAN legislation in the fifties and Sixities. We're not talking Slavery days here.

In regard to Kyoto, This is a first step not the end point.
Until the US wake's up to the reality of an impending oil crisis and helps not hinders a solution, we are all heading for a fall.

Britain isn't great. I understand this, the policy makers in this country like all others, work for their self interest first. I at least recognise this and an willing to discuss. You, it would seem are blinkered by an, everything America does is great, attitude.
please except that this is not true and move forward.

Re the elections. As Jeb said to George W, Florida is a done deal.

We are living in very interesting times. I don't see myself as a doom monger but the world faces many problems in regard to natural resources in the 21st century.
I only hope that these will be resolved by dialogue and mutual acceptance rather than sabre rattling and conflict.

Please discuss, I'm sure you must have a view.

 

[Copeland]

Thank you for an intelligent post.

> People need to realize that the age of petroleum is coming to an
> end.

I don't know how accurate your statement is, but I suspect it is mostly true. Thankfully, we are now looking more at nuclear energy, which is much more sustainable. Regardless of the final approach America takes toward the energy crisis, we certainly need a temoprary solution now, at least until our long-range plans can become a reality. That's why drilling in that VERY SMALL area in Alaska is crucially important. The people who rail against a percieved "environmental threat" are the first ones who will complain when there is a shortage of energy. Isn't the hypocrisy of day-to-day life very amusing?

 

[WorkingGirl]

Re: Thank you for an intelligent post.

> I don't know how accurate your statement is, but I suspect it is
> mostly true.

Why? because he says so? you have looked into this regardless of your previous statement.

Thankfully, we are now looking more at nuclear
> energy, which is much more sustainable.

and what are you planning to do with the waste?

while most of the developed countries with nuclear power are moving away from using Nuclear, doing so because they see it as NOT the solution but another problem.

Regardless of the final
> approach America takes toward the energy crisis, we certainly
> need a temoprary solution now, at least until our long-range
> plans can become a reality.

Perhaps you can enlighten me on these long-range plans?

That's why drilling in that VERY
> SMALL area in Alaska is crucially important.

To run a few more cars for a few more months.

The people who rail
> against a percieved "environmental threat" are the
> first ones who will complain when there is a shortage of energy.

No. These are the people looking into alternative energy sources, Wind farms, Solar, Wave.

The people who moan most will be those people who use most.

> Isn't the hypocrisy of day-to-day life very amusing?

I am coming to the conclusion that you are a fool. If I am wrong please let me know.

 

[WorkingGirl]

Re: Not to butt in....

> An area that has enough crude to run every car in the U.S. for
> five months. What's the point of drilling for that little oil?
> To put money in the pocket of the oil companies - i.e. Bush's
> old Texas cronies.

> People need to realize that the age of petroleum is coming to an
> end. Oil production in the America peaked in 1948. It will peak
> in the Middle East within ten years. It's a finite resource that
> is almost gone. The sooner we stop trying to find more oil and
> instead turn our efforts to sustainable energy sources and a
> sustainable lifestyle the better; especially for Americans, who
> are the most oil dependent people in the world.

> And I'm speaking both as a Californian who has gone thru
> blackouts and as a facilities manager responsible for insuring
> 3000 people have the resources they need to do their jobs. 75%
> percent of the problems in my state are caused by a poorly
> written law and the stupidity of the voters who fell for the
> power companies campaign for it.

A Oasis of sanity.

 

[Ams]

Re: Not to butt in....

> People need to realize that the age of petroleum is coming to an
> end. Oil production in the America peaked in 1948. It will peak
> in the Middle East within ten years. It's a finite resource that
> is almost gone. The sooner we stop trying to find more oil and
> instead turn our efforts to sustainable energy sources and a
> sustainable lifestyle the better; especially for Americans, who
> are the most oil dependent people in the world.

You have to understand that people have been looking for these solutions for years but the greedy gas companies are stuffing money down our politicians' pockets to keep these solutions from coming to light.

 

[Rose]

> The black population were being discriminated against by
> AMERICAN legislation in the fifties and Sixities. We're not
> talking Slavery days here.

i'm probably going to regret entering this whole thing, but yes, there was legal discrimination. yes, it sucked. however, we've been trying to move on for almost half a century, and it's very difficult to do that when people who never had anything to do with slavery are constantly made to apologize to people who will never know what slavery was like for the sins of people long dead. there are things that need to happen to help move on and get closer to equality, but there's a point when all the talk, apologies, and effort begin to have the opposite effect, creating resentment, which is counterproductive...but i guess you've heard that a lot. slavery and discrimination aren't purely american problems. slavery existed in various cultures throughtout history, and you'll find discrimination everywhere. does that make it right anywhere? no, but it's still there.

 

[half a shoplifter]

where's my forty acres and a mule, copeland? c'mon bro', get prez bush to hook us up...

 

[WorkingGirl]

Re: Not to butt in....

> You have to understand that people have been looking for these
> solutions for years but the greedy gas companies are stuffing
> money down our politicians' pockets to keep these solutions from
> coming to light.

This maybe an urban myth, but I heard that an inventor had designed an engine that worked by an electrical current spliting water into hydrogen and oxygen and then using those two to combust and drive the vehicles prop shaft. I heard that a Motor compnay bought the rights to the engine and then shelved it.

Just think and battery car that used water as fuel.

WorkingGirlx

 

[WorkingGirl]

What's your point Rose?

It was the British and particularly the English that were transporting Africans to the West indies and the US when America was still a colony.

George Washington had slaves.

In 1000 AD Dublin in Ireland had the biggest slave market in Western Europe.

The word slave comes from the term Slav meaning a eastern European people.

You may not want reminding that your country was not the bastion of equality that some of the posters to my comments would like to think, but it is a fact, and now whether you like it or not, your generation has to deal with the consquences of the actions of your forefathers.

 

[WorkingGirl]

Re: where's my forty acres and a mule, copeland? c'mon bro', get prez bush to hook us up...

Where's your Brain?

Copeland, he seems to have as much sense as you have.

WorkingGirlx

 

[Kirstie]

Re: The return...

> There will always be a small minority of racists. The rest of
> the country shouldn't be dragged through the mud because of it.

No but in my opinion it is still a problem.

> Absolutely wrong. Blacks go to school for free just like white
> people. We all have the same opportunity to learn and apply
> ourselves. The SAT score you recieve is an indication of the
> effort you put into it.

The SAT score is an indication of how well one takes tests not effort. I had a 95 average in high school and got college credit for three AP classes and I only scored 1170 on my SATs. Because of that, no college would give me a scholarship. Now that is BS.

> We are talking about using only 2000 acres of an area the size
> of South Carolina! You would change your mind on this the second
> your electricity is shut off due to lack of energy resources.
> Just ask a Californian.

and why do you think we are suffering from a lack of energy resources?

> Good, they can go back home.

Copeland, I agree with you that, in terms of freedom specifically, the US does have alot to offer. However, you seem to think it is a sort of ideal utopia which it is not.

Kirstie

 

[Kirstie]

racism

> i'm probably going to regret entering this whole thing, but yes,
> there was legal discrimination. yes, it sucked. however, we've
> been trying to move on for almost half a century, and it's very
> difficult to do that when people who never had anything to do
> with slavery are constantly made to apologize to people who will
> never know what slavery was like for the sins of people long
> dead.

my problem is that all people do not consider our past mistakes a mistake-they actually think we did/were doing the right thing. People are not generally willing to move ahead but not because they like to rehash the past (as I am getting a hunch you might be suspecting) but because they do not know right from wrong and they refuse to move ahead. Just recently, a person from my workplace told me that when her husband (who is spanish but has dark skin) went to visit Florida, people chased him out of the town he was in calling, "Get away n*****" Now it is stuff like that which makes me feel we are still very very far behind where we should be.

there are things that need to happen to help move on and
> get closer to equality, but there's a point when all the talk,
> apologies, and effort begin to have the opposite effect,
> creating resentment, which is counterproductive...but i guess
> you've heard that a lot. slavery and discrimination aren't
> purely american problems.
slavery existed in various cultures
> throughtout history, and you'll find discrimination everywhere.
> does that make it right anywhere? no, but it's still there.

true.

 

[dan mcgroarty]

Re: racism

> my problem is that all people do not consider our past mistakes
> a mistake-they actually think we did/were doing the right thing.
> People are not generally willing to move ahead but not because
> they like to rehash the past (as I am getting a hunch you might
> be suspecting) but because they do not know right from wrong and
> they refuse to move ahead. Just recently, a person from my
> workplace told me that when her husband (who is spanish but has
> dark skin) went to visit Florida, people chased him out of the
> town he was in calling, "Get away n*****" Now it is
> stuff like that which makes me feel we are still very very far
> behind where we should be.

> there are things that need to happen to help move on and
> slavery existed in various cultures

> true.
you over analyze. / .///?

 

[Kirstie]

Re: racism

> you over analyze. / .///?

of course I do. I'm me.

Kirstie

 

[half a shoplifter]

"where is my mind?"

> Where's your Brain?

> Copeland, he seems to have as much sense as you have.

> WorkingGirlx

in my head, if you care. ah, the silliness of morrissey-solo, i luv it...

OverworkedGirlxxx