Wikileaks story

"EVERY attack now made on Julian Assange and Wikileaks was made against me and the release of the Pentagon Papers at the time."

- Daniel Ellsberg

This man is uniquely qualified to understand the politics of the current situation.

This is the sort of article that makes you consider whether it might not be better to just drop the internet, or maybe slash your wrists.

I'm particularly looking forward to Jack Black's searing critique on the War in Afghanistan in the next issue of The Economist.
 
Hasn't Assange been well-known for a couple of years now? And hasn't Wikileaks been a sporadic scandal since its set-up 4 years ago, whereas the rape charges only arose last August? His ex-colleagues have been complaining for months of his domineering characteristics and they've set up new channels e.g. OpenLeaks, that set them apart but build on the Wikileaks philosophy. The movement doesn't depend anymore on whether one man goes down, deservedly or not, for a misdemeanour. :highfive:

Yeah, and yeah. Assange has served his purpose.
 
http://haikuleaks.tetalab.org/

Haïkuleaks Cable is poetry 65 haikus in 1830 cables


1.
As is typical,
the Pope stayed above the fray
and did not comment.
00HARARE5461.txt
2.
Whether such tactics
will have a chilling effect
remains to be seen.
09MEXICO193.txt
3.
Rocha and Rands
did not attend the meeting
with Micheletti.
09BRASILIA1262.txt
4.
"We have made request
after request," he said, "Why
doesn't the U.S. respond?
04SANAA2346.txt
5.
They do not know when
those attacks might occur or
what form they will take.
07ALGIERS1809.txt
 
I don't know, maybe I gave the impression I think that you're stupid. I really haven't formed that opinion, but you obviously think this rape case is relevant, and I don't.

The possibility that you might think I'm stupid hasn't crossed my mind. Not that it'd bother me, considering the powers of reasoning and observation you're displaying here. For instance, you seem to have missed that I have repeatedly expressed the opinion that the rape case and the Wilileaks issue should be held separate, and that neither is relevant to the other. Furthermore, your whole line of argument here is premised on the exact opposite assumption, namely that the Wikileaks case is relevant to the rape case. And furthermore:

It's ALL related to Wikileaks. I used the Paypal - Mastercard issue as an example of how extraordinary this is.

That is the whole f***ing point, if you really need it spoon-fed yet another time. US authorities are pressuring US companies into cutting Wikileaks, because they are leaking classified State Dept cables. Fine. Agreed. Not difficult to see how that works. What is a bit more difficult to see is how exactly US authorities are pressuring the Swedish public prosecutor and two female wikileaks activists into framing Julian Assange for rape.

That is my beef: You may think that the rape charge is irrelevant to the Wikileaks case - I agree. But apparently people like Michael Moore and Naomi Wolf don't , because they are linking them. If you want to argue or imply such linkage, you need some sort of plausible scenario that explains how that comes about, because things don't actually just work that way. The US can't just go to the Swedish government and get them to do this, and for that matter, the Swedish government can't just go to their public prosecutor and get him to do this. It would take a long, complex and convoluted chain of illegitimate coercion that is inherently implausible and that no one has produced so much as a scrap of evidence for. Which is pretty much a working definition of a conspiracy theory.

What we instead get is people going right ahead and making instinctual connections, in support of which they produce ludicruous rubbish like this:

I think Wikileaks is a wonderful thing. I don't really care about the rape case because I don't care about Julian Assange as a person. You are against Wikileaks and think the rape case matters. That is the connection.

If you can't see how this translates into
a: did you hear about Wikileaks?
b: that guy is a rapist!

then you should get out of the PR business and give the CIA back their money. ;)
 
Last edited:
Hasn't Assange been well-known for a couple of years now? And hasn't Wikileaks been a sporadic scandal since its set-up 4 years ago, whereas the rape charges only arose last August? His ex-colleagues have been complaining for months of his domineering characteristics and they've set up new channels e.g. OpenLeaks, that set them apart but build on the Wikileaks philosophy. The movement doesn't depend anymore on whether one man goes down, deservedly or not, for a misdemeanour. :highfive:

Keep in mind that what we're discussing here is how come Dave hadn't heard of the rape charges prior to the latest Wikileaks scandal. Apparently, they would have told him earlier if it'd had been the real deal.
 
funny-dog-pictures-grumpy-dog-wishes-you-a-merry-christmas.jpg
:D

Pray cease and desist from fretting, QVist! On this issue there are many views, often in the process of formation as this new challenge to authority is being understood. They can't all be written off that easily, but if they can, would you please share why and how they could? Isn't it only natural that people are curious about the attitudes of those who they presume run aspects of their lives with the good in mind?

The Wikileaks founder stated that transparency could prove even more the merit of ethical companies; it is only the bad companies that need to fear it. In one interview, he said that obtaining copies of the leaked internal communications provided the essential window into how the accumulation and sum of smaller everyday procedures, the lived culture of organisations, ultimately corrode and fell the gung-ho bastions:

"It was all the little decisions that supported the flagrant violations.
This will be like that. Yes, there will be some flagrant violations, unethical practices that will be revealed, but it will also be all the supporting decision-making structures and the internal executive ethos that cames out, and that’s tremendously valuable. Like the Iraq War Logs, yes there were mass casualty incidents that were very newsworthy, but the great value is seeing the full spectrum of the war.

You could call it the ecosystem of corruption. But it’s also all the regular decision making that turns a blind eye to and supports unethical practices: the oversight that’s not done, the priorities of executives, how they think they’re fulfilling their own self-interest. The way they talk about it."

I think that a lot of people, embedded in the daily grind, begin to realise what's going on around them once it's spelled out to them. The result will probably be overdue empowerment in some places; damaging and groundless agitation in others, and a lot of nothing. But it is interesting, as are the internal biographies and conflicts of the activists who're presumably as imperfect as the next person. ;)

Okay, let's deal with that point by point.

The Wikileaks founder stated that transparency could prove even more the merit of ethical companies; it is only the bad companies that need to fear it.

This is a completely specious argument. ANY company is severely damaged by the publication of the entirety or broad segments of its internal communication. It doesn't matter if they're ethical or not, because this is not solely - or even primarily - a question of ethical standards. It is a question of a legitimate need to be able to operate, process and share information safely. If you can't, you cannot make business. Philosophically, Assange's argument is akin to that of extreme free churches who prohibit curtains in the homes of its adherents, on the reasoning that you should never do anything that can't stand the light of day. They both take a sound concept - ethical integrity and transparency respectively - and turn it into a destructive tool by extending its application in extremis.

This has always been implicitly understood, and the a free press committed to the ideal of transparency has as a consequence always applied some sort of criteria of restraint. You don't neccessarily publish anything that might interest someone or tell the public something useful about something. There is no obvious place to draw the line, but normally the publication of classified information is justified by it being in the public interest - for instance, by bringing to light illegal actions, corruption or policies that differ drastically from what is publicly announced for no legitimate reason.

What is Assange's position within this field of questions? It is this:

obtaining copies of the leaked internal communications provided the essential window into how the accumulation and sum of smaller everyday procedures, the lived culture of organisations, ultimately corrode and fell the gung-ho bastions:

"It was all the little decisions that supported the flagrant violations.
This will be like that. Yes, there will be some flagrant violations, unethical practices that will be revealed, but it will also be all the supporting decision-making structures and the internal executive ethos that cames out, and that’s tremendously valuable.

Which in essence boils down to the claim that the public needs to know everything. Because the big things are illuminated by the sum of small things, which is of course perfectly true. But the logical consequence of applying such a logic to government is that nobody does, writes or says anything that he or she isn't comfortable about standing up and defending in the newspapers tomorrow. And when I say "defend", I don't mean just ethically, but also politically, in terms of career-advancement utility and so on. I invite you to consider whether this would be a desirable state of affairs.

Moreover, Assange's whole logic rests on a fundamental premiss that is largely unspoken as well as unproven: That the system is as a whole and in general terms corrupt. That lawlessness, arbitrary use of power and corruption are general traits of how Western government works. Only that would provide some justification for his anarchic conviction that general exposure is the only solution. But he is wrong, and I must confess it is a source of constant amazement to me to see millions of educated people across the West who appear to share this delusion. I find it even more amazing that what is emerging from the cables is interpreted as support for this rather than the contrary. I can't say I have followed everything pertaining to everywhere, but in the case of Norway at least, what we have seen has been mainly frank and often quite good analysis, of just the kind you'd expect a competent embassy to produce.

I've spent the last ten years in Central and Eastern Europe, where problems in corruption, rule of law and generally weak standards of political life are very real issues. In most of the rest of the world, things are much worse still. And, they exist also in the mature western democracies, but they are not systemic - which is, in fact, a rather unique achievement and something worth fighting for. These problems are real. There is no need to submerge them in an anarchic fantasy of a pseudo-democratic system permeated by corruption.

You could call it the ecosystem of corruption. But it’s also all the regular decision making that turns a blind eye to and supports unethical practices: the oversight that’s not done, the priorities of executives, how they think they’re fulfilling their own self-interest. The way they talk about it."

I think that a lot of people, embedded in the daily grind, begin to realise what's going on around them once it's spelled out to them. The result will probably be overdue empowerment in some places; damaging and groundless agitation in others, and a lot of nothing. But it is interesting, as are the internal biographies and conflicts of the activists who're presumably as imperfect as the next person.

Well, what I mainly see is demagogy. The leaks are sold as a finished product with no attendant analysis: See, here's the corruption we're talking about. The abuse of power. The US government calls Silvio Berlusconi a pompous asshole. Joseph Biden said something in public he had doubts about in closed meetings. Aren't you angry? No wonder they're keeping it all secret from us, that says it all doesn't it.

But where's the analysis? Where's the guy who's done what Assange has claimed is the main benefit of publishing it all, namely looked at it all (or at least a lot of it) in conjunction and produced some sort of reasoned argument that points out that here is a general practice which is in fact at odds with these reasonably defined standards of ethical behavior and accountability? They are selling a perception, and the documents are essentially a prop. Once they've made ten headlines, no more is essentially needed - what matters is that it's the right kind of headlines. So far, they and their associates have released a tiny fraction of the 250,000 documents and presumably not the most boring ones. If someone with a capacity for synthesising huge quantities of documentation, like a historian, sat down and wrote an account giving a systemic description on that basis, do you think a very sensational picture of that system would emerge?

These guys are media savvy. By leaking documents in driblets they are not just keeping interest up, they are also insuring that the general perception is shaped by the most sensationalist cases and preventing anyone from putting the leaked information into a broader context. And perversely, this is not held against them by most people who realise what they are doing, because to most people today savviness means a lot more than intellectual integrity. That doesn't change the reality, which is that what you have here is essentially an anarchist medicine show that happened to get its hands on some real goods and making the most of them. Go along for the ride if you think it's worth it. ;)
 
Last edited:
I'm particularly looking forward to Jack Black's searing critique on the War in Afghanistan in the next issue of The Economist.

The shoe-shining, tap-dancing classes just don't know their places anymore, speaking out of turn with more shredibility than credibility, is that it?! :lbf:


Okay, let's deal with that point by point...
What is Assange's position within this field of questions? It is this:

Which in essence boils down to the claim that the public needs to know everything. Because the big things are illuminated by the sum of small things, which is of course perfectly true...

I understand that part of the Wikileaks raison d'etre is to restore a balance between the attempts by Government and corporations to store more information than ever before, with or without consent, potentially for commercial and control purposes, on citizens at large, and between the say of the individual. Subjecting everything that an organisation does to audit can be cumbersome, but this is the normal way to maintain standards. There should be very little that any organisation which provides services to the public would want to hide from its stakeholders, which would include the public. Your phrase, 'career-advancement utility' is very telling, implying, whether you meant to or not, that agendas other than the stated aspirations of a company are being pursued. I would go so far as to say that the encouragment and enabling of careerism had a lot to do with the toppling of Ireland's economy.


Moreover, Assange's whole logic rests on a fundamental premiss that is largely unspoken as well as unproven: That the system is as a whole and in general terms corrupt. .

The lie about Iraq did a lot of damage to trust in Western authorities, reinforcing the corruption premise. It's all relative, of course. However, people do feel that they're being bugged and tapped like never before for no good reason e.g.
"www.veteransforamerica.org...
tion/campaignid/27

Confidentiality is the tool that Globalist hate-mongers are
using against us--to forbid information from percolating from one
level to the next.

I cannot get my medical test results because the hospital is
paranoid that I'm not who I say I am.

I cannot get my credit report because Equivax employees don't want
to believe I am who I say I am. Check-points and obstacles are
everywhere.

The Powers that Be--Congress and the Globalist Bankers--have taken
Paranoid Schizophrenia and turned it into a High ART--to prevent any
of us from seeing and knowing what Predators in Power are up to. I
am prevented from knowing what the RECORD says about me and my
life; and by Law, that's perfectly okay.

"Confidentiality" is nothing but a ruse, to stop Truth from flowing.

Those of us who live examined lives don't give a shift what people
see in our histories; and in fact, we wonder JUST WHAT they
FABRICATED or MADE up--to make us who tell the truth to look bad.

Deception has gone over-the-edge into mental illness.

Our Legislatures are acting as if we are all crazy.

Which makes them crazy." - http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread213349/pg1


I've spent the last ten years in Central and Eastern Europe, where problems in corruption, rule of law and generally weak standards of political life are very real issues. In most of the rest of the world, things are much worse still. And, they exist also in the mature western democracies, but they are not systemic - which is, in fact, a rather unique achievement and something worth fighting for. These problems are real. There is no need to submerge them in an anarchic fantasy of a pseudo-democratic system permeated by corruption.

I appreciate the forthrightness and accuracy, for the most part, of this point-of-view. It is essential to keep perspective, and refrain from being rebels without a cause, throwing tantrums for the sake of it. From another lengthy discussion blog is a little piece by CEO of Integral Institute, Robb Smith, who sides with you:

"In a world with a lot of folks who will leverage another’s capabilities to do harm, Assange’s efforts and those of his allies will have serious consequences. I believe that I have to take full responsibility at every step for my ethics and my capabilities. Though I know many of the effects of these leaks will be unpredictably positive, others might be devastating. Just watching how these hackers are now using this interaction as an excuse to try to bring down global retailers, I ask myself: really, is this helpful? Is this humane? So now thug-like rioting in the streets and anarchy-like behavior is what we get? Mark my words, regular folks just trying to go about their day are going to get hurt before this is done. These are the effects that an ethical and mature world citizen would have accounted for. You don’t just shit all over civilization and the rule of law because you can. What an integral view calls for is a massively deep sensitivity to the power we wield and a deep humility at the outsize effects our actions can have. - http://www.c4chaos.com/2010/12/on-wikileaks-julian-assange-and-integrally-informed-musings/

When he states that he must take full responsibility at every step for his ethics and his capabilities, we can say, good for you, but how will we know, how will we measure if he's doing this? Psychopaths rarely consider themselves evil. They often have highly-developed social skills that enable them to charm their way into people's trust, get at the booty, whatever it may be, and discard whoever gets in their way. In some analyses, the practice of business, especially under corporate law, has been judged psychopathic in its single-pointed, obsessive-compulsive pursuit of bottom-line goals. Since the law was altered to allow commerce to harness resources, including information, not readily available to most people, how is redress to be accessed? Behind the Wikileaks fuss is a deep difference of values.


Well, what I mainly see is demagogy... No wonder they're keeping it all secret from us, that says it all doesn't it.

But where's the analysis?..what you have here is essentially an anarchist medicine show that happened to get its hands on some real goods and making the most of them.

The analysis from the Wikileaks people does seem to have fallen by the wayside, but there's clearly an appetite for what they're doing. People are indignant that they're being manipulated by lopsided spin of cases, and being treated as statistical units for a great variety of purposes behind their backs.

Fundamentally, to be confidential or not to be confidential, that is the question:
A basic set of confidentiality guidelines that can be extropolated, comes from http://michaelpwolf.net/classes/232/232confidentiality.html -

"A non-snarky reading of Siegler’s argument against strict confidentiality

Conducting best practices secures the greatest possible aggregate utility for all those affected.
Best practices in medicine depend on the cooperation of large numbers of people, e.g. doctors, nurses, technicians, bureaucrats.
If a set of practices secures the greatest possible aggregate utility for all those affected, then we should adopt them and not adopt anything that undermines them.
Best practices are undermined by any notion of strict confidentiality for medical information.
Therefore, we should not adopt a strict notion of confidentiality.


The Harm Principle [HP]: Moral agents should refrain from acts and omissions that would foreseeably result in preventable wrongful harm to innocent others.
The Vulnerability Principle [VP]: Moral agents should take the greatest care to apply HP in cases where someone is specially dependent on others or in some way especially vulnerable to their choices and actions.

Winston’s Argument for Restricted Confidentiality


Strict notions of confidentiality for HIV status violate cases of HP+VP.
A restricted rule of confidentiality might allow for exceptions in cases of HP+VP.
A restricted rule of confidentiality will ensure some of the same benefits as a strict one (more open discussion between doctors and patients, more likely to get tested).
A practice of having no confidentiality (or very little) will ensure none of the benefits of a strict notion of confidentiality.
If a set of practices secures the greatest possible aggregate utility for all those affected, then we should adopt them and not adopt anything that undermines them.

Therefore, we should adopt a restricted rule of confidentiality.

The hard part: when do we make the exceptions?" -

We need to be careful that the exceptions don't become the rule. The scope for interpretation is huge, of course. Also, referring again to Robb Smith's reservations, there's a world outside the West which can now also access intelligence documents. Some in that world hungry for revenge may not be as likely to cut a deal, but instead be prepared to use the information in more direct enmity. Except that when Smith says, 'You don’t just shit all over civilization and the rule of law because you can', it's kind of already happened. That it has is part of Wikileaks' own justification for its existence. They have reassuringly derived their standards from the United Nations and circulate the leaks to shame and name defaulters.

It was inevitable, really, that it would come to this, given advances in education, computer sophistication and citizens' rights. The results are too complex to tell at this stage.
 
Okay, let's deal with that point by point.



This is a completely specious argument. ANY company is severely damaged by the publication of the entirety or broad segments of its internal communication. It doesn't matter if they're ethical or not, because this is not solely - or even primarily - a question of ethical standards. It is a question of a legitimate need to be able to operate, process and share information safely. If you can't, you cannot make business. Philosophically, Assange's argument is akin to that of extreme free churches who prohibit curtains in the homes of its adherents, on the reasoning that you should never do anything that can't stand the light of day. They both take a sound concept - ethical integrity and transparency respectively - and turn it into a destructive tool by extending its application in extremis.

This has always been implicitly understood, and the a free press committed to the ideal of transparency has as a consequence always applied some sort of criteria of restraint. You don't neccessarily publish anything that might interest someone or tell the public something useful about something. There is no obvious place to draw the line, but normally the publication of classified information is justified by it being in the public interest - for instance, by bringing to light illegal actions, corruption or policies that differ drastically from what is publicly announced for no legitimate reason.

What is Assange's position within this field of questions? It is this:



Which in essence boils down to the claim that the public needs to know everything. Because the big things are illuminated by the sum of small things, which is of course perfectly true. But the logical consequence of applying such a logic to government is that nobody does, writes or says anything that he or she isn't comfortable about standing up and defending in the newspapers tomorrow. And when I say "defend", I don't mean just ethically, but also politically, in terms of career-advancement utility and so on. I invite you to consider whether this would be a desirable state of affairs.

Moreover, Assange's whole logic rests on a fundamental premiss that is largely unspoken as well as unproven: That the system is as a whole and in general terms corrupt. That lawlessness, arbitrary use of power and corruption are general traits of how Western government works. Only that would provide some justification for his anarchic conviction that general exposure is the only solution. But he is wrong, and I must confess it is a source of constant amazement to me to see millions of educated people across the West who appear to share this delusion. I find it even more amazing that what is emerging from the cables is interpreted as support for this rather than the contrary. I can't say I have followed everything pertaining to everywhere, but in the case of Norway at least, what we have seen has been mainly frank and often quite good analysis, of just the kind you'd expect a competent embassy to produce.

I've spent the last ten years in Central and Eastern Europe, where problems in corruption, rule of law and generally weak standards of political life are very real issues. In most of the rest of the world, things are much worse still. And, they exist also in the mature western democracies, but they are not systemic - which is, in fact, a rather unique achievement and something worth fighting for. These problems are real. There is no need to submerge them in an anarchic fantasy of a pseudo-democratic system permeated by corruption.



Well, what I mainly see is demagogy. The leaks are sold as a finished product with no attendant analysis: See, here's the corruption we're talking about. The abuse of power. The US government calls Silvio Berlusconi a pompous asshole. Joseph Biden said something in public he had doubts about in closed meetings. Aren't you angry? No wonder they're keeping it all secret from us, that says it all doesn't it.

But where's the analysis? Where's the guy who's done what Assange has claimed is the main benefit of publishing it all, namely looked at it all (or at least a lot of it) in conjunction and produced some sort of reasoned argument that points out that here is a general practice which is in fact at odds with these reasonably defined standards of ethical behavior and accountability? They are selling a perception, and the documents are essentially a prop. Once they've made ten headlines, no more is essentially needed - what matters is that it's the right kind of headlines. So far, they and their associates have released a tiny fraction of the 250,000 documents and presumably not the most boring ones. If someone with a capacity for synthesising huge quantities of documentation, like a historian, sat down and wrote an account giving a systemic description on that basis, do you think a very sensational picture of that system would emerge?

These guys are media savvy. By leaking documents in driblets they are not just keeping interest up, they are also insuring that the general perception is shaped by the most sensationalist cases and preventing anyone from putting the leaked information into a broader context. And perversely, this is not held against them by most people who realise what they are doing, because to most people today savviness means a lot more than intellectual integrity. That doesn't change the reality, which is that what you have here is essentially an anarchist medicine show that happened to get its hands on some real goods and making the most of them. Go along for the ride if you think it's worth it. ;)

Whether you realize it or not you are simply repeating the establishment position. Every issue you raise has been addressed in the media and if you were interested in seeing both sides you could easily do so without having others waste their time summarizing for you.

You complain that the information is being leaked in sections, claiming this shows the media savvy of the Wikileaks organization, and you may be right about that. Maybe they are trying to keep up interest by letting it out slowly, but they could just as easily be releasing it this way to give people a chance to actually read it without being overwhelmed by the volume.

Or maybe they are holding back things that would be damaging. We don't know.

So are you saying they should leak it all now? No. You want none of it leaked ever because you compare the government to a private corporation. But if a private corporation was doing what our government is doing that would certainly be newsworthy. We're not talking about trade secrets, we are talking about the way our government conducts itself on our behalf.

The US is involved in two major and very shady wars. Our former president admitted in his new book that he approved torture. Our current piece of shit is protecting him and Wikileaks shows us that "closing Guantanamo" meant hiding the prisoners somewhere else. That's relevant. That deserves to be known. If you don't want to know it don't read it.


"How far down the U.S. has slid can be seen, ironically enough, in a recent commentary in Pravda (that’s right, Russia’s Pravda): “What WikiLeaks has done is make people understand why so many Americans are politically apathetic … After all, the evils committed by those in power can be suffocating, and the sense of powerlessness that erupts can be paralyzing, especially when … government evildoers almost always get away with their crimes. …”

So shame on Barack Obama, Eric Holder, and all those who spew platitudes about integrity, justice and accountability while allowing war criminals and torturers to walk freely upon the earth. … the American people should be outraged that their government has transformed a nation with a reputation for freedom, justice, tolerance and respect for human rights into a backwater that revels in its criminality, cover-ups, injustices and hypocrisies."
 
I understand that part of the Wikileaks raison d'etre is to restore a balance between the attempts by Government and corporations to store more information than ever before, with or without consent, potentially for commercial and control purposes, on citizens at large, and between the say of the individual. There should be very little that any organisation which provides services to the public would want to hide from its stakeholders, which would include the public. I would go so far as to say that the encouragment and enabling of careerism had a lot to do with the toppling of Ireland's economy.

I'm sorry, but what does this remotely have to do with what we're discussing here? How does leaking a diplomatic assessment of Turkish politics somehow counterbalance storage of personal data?

Subjecting everything that an organisation does to audit can be cumbersome, but this is the normal way to maintain standards.

And in what sense is leaking 250,000 documents an "audit"?


Your phrase, 'career-advancement utility' is very telling, implying, whether you meant to or not, that agendas other than the stated aspirations of a company are being pursued.

Yes, of course, that was exactly what I intended to imply - did you think people who work in government were automatons, devoid of the normal human characteristics that shape people's behavior everywhere? The point here was that you are delusional if you think that absolute transparency would commit people to actively pursue "stated aspirations". On the contrary, it would commit people to actively pursue a public image and cover their backs. It would make conditions impossible for those who care about the substance of their work (which inescapably involves things like saying unpopular and hence contentious things), and ideal for every careerist bootlicker who're perfectly happy to spend his days keeping up appearances. I've done government work, if not on a particularly exciting level - but even in my case, if I were to imagine that everything I wrote would be publicly accessible, I would simply have been useless. Everything I wrote would in effect be a press release, my first thought would be to protect myself against being interpreted in the wrong way and if I had anything actually important to relate, it would probably be simpler to just the call the person who needed it and say it. In short: The notion of absolute transparency is downright puerile, in a way that should be obvious to anyone. NOTHING can function on even a basic level on such conditions. Not even a nickel-and-dime store.

The lie about Iraq did a lot of damage to trust in Western authorities, reinforcing the corruption premise. It's all relative, of course. However, people do feel that they're being bugged and tapped like never before for no good reason e.g.
"www.veteransforamerica.org...
tion/campaignid/27

Confidentiality is the tool that Globalist hate-mongers are
using against us--to forbid information from percolating from one
level to the next.

I cannot get my medical test results because the hospital is
paranoid that I'm not who I say I am.

I cannot get my credit report because Equivax employees don't want
to believe I am who I say I am. Check-points and obstacles are
everywhere.

The Powers that Be--Congress and the Globalist Bankers--have taken
Paranoid Schizophrenia and turned it into a High ART--to prevent any
of us from seeing and knowing what Predators in Power are up to. I
am prevented from knowing what the RECORD says about me and my
life; and by Law, that's perfectly okay.

"Confidentiality" is nothing but a ruse, to stop Truth from flowing.

Those of us who live examined lives don't give a shift what people
see in our histories; and in fact, we wonder JUST WHAT they
FABRICATED or MADE up--to make us who tell the truth to look bad.

Deception has gone over-the-edge into mental illness.

Our Legislatures are acting as if we are all crazy.

Which makes them crazy." - http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread213349/pg1


Sorry, but I'm not even going to try addressing that. You seem like a smart bloke, it shouldn't be neccessary. There are people out there who actually refuse to inoculate their kids because they've convinced themselves that vaccines are just a ruse to bolster Pfizer's profits, and there are people out there who are convinced the Government is a conspiracy to take away their guns. The above is of much the same ilk.


I appreciate the forthrightness and accuracy, for the most part, of this point-of-view. It is essential to keep perspective, and refrain from being rebels without a cause, throwing tantrums for the sake of it. From another lengthy discussion blog is a little piece by CEO of Integral Institute, Robb Smith, who sides with you:

"In a world with a lot of folks who will leverage another’s capabilities to do harm, Assange’s efforts and those of his allies will have serious consequences. I believe that I have to take full responsibility at every step for my ethics and my capabilities. Though I know many of the effects of these leaks will be unpredictably positive, others might be devastating. Just watching how these hackers are now using this interaction as an excuse to try to bring down global retailers, I ask myself: really, is this helpful? Is this humane? So now thug-like rioting in the streets and anarchy-like behavior is what we get? Mark my words, regular folks just trying to go about their day are going to get hurt before this is done. These are the effects that an ethical and mature world citizen would have accounted for. You don’t just shit all over civilization and the rule of law because you can. What an integral view calls for is a massively deep sensitivity to the power we wield and a deep humility at the outsize effects our actions can have. - http://www.c4chaos.com/2010/12/on-wikileaks-julian-assange-and-integrally-informed-musings/

Thanks for sharing that, very interesting. And yes, I agree with him.

Too long, sep. post to follow.
 
Last edited:
When he states that he must take full responsibility at every step for his ethics and his capabilities, we can say, good for you, but how will we know, how will we measure if he's doing this? Psychopaths rarely consider themselves evil. They often have highly-developed social skills that enable them to charm their way into people's trust, get at the booty, whatever it may be, and discard whoever gets in their way. In some analyses, the practice of business, especially under corporate law, has been judged psychopathic in its single-pointed, obsessive-compulsive pursuit of bottom-line goals. Since the law was altered to allow commerce to harness resources, including information, not readily available to most people, how is redress to be accessed? Behind the Wikileaks fuss is a deep difference of values.

No, behind the Wikileaks fuss is a conviction in certain quarters that the government and business are fundamentally corrupted and evil to the core. Which, quite frankly, is the sort of extremist position with which it is no more possible to communicate than you can with a diehard maoist or a hillbilly gun nut or a nazi. It's not analysis, it's hysterics. But I digress. Again, you are confusing issues in the above. This does not do anything whatsoever to redress the protection of personal data against commercial use.

The analysis from the Wikileaks people does seem to have fallen by the wayside, but there's clearly an appetite for what they're doing. People are indignant that they're being manipulated by lopsided spin of cases, and being treated as statistical units for a great variety of purposes behind their backs.

No, people are indignant mainly because they are ignorant and stupid. To be blunt.

Fundamentally, to be confidential or not to be confidential, that is the question:

No, that is exactly what the question is not. No one has ever ran a large organisation - let alone a state - without confidentiality. No one ever will. The issue is and will remain what are the legitimate limits of confidentiality.


A basic set of confidentiality guidelines that can be extropolated, comes from http://michaelpwolf.net/classes/232/232confidentiality.html -

"A non-snarky reading of Siegler’s argument against strict confidentiality

Conducting best practices secures the greatest possible aggregate utility for all those affected.
Best practices in medicine depend on the cooperation of large numbers of people, e.g. doctors, nurses, technicians, bureaucrats.
If a set of practices secures the greatest possible aggregate utility for all those affected, then we should adopt them and not adopt anything that undermines them.
Best practices are undermined by any notion of strict confidentiality for medical information.
Therefore, we should not adopt a strict notion of confidentiality.


The Harm Principle [HP]: Moral agents should refrain from acts and omissions that would foreseeably result in preventable wrongful harm to innocent others.
The Vulnerability Principle [VP]: Moral agents should take the greatest care to apply HP in cases where someone is specially dependent on others or in some way especially vulnerable to their choices and actions.

Winston’s Argument for Restricted Confidentiality


Strict notions of confidentiality for HIV status violate cases of HP+VP.
A restricted rule of confidentiality might allow for exceptions in cases of HP+VP.
A restricted rule of confidentiality will ensure some of the same benefits as a strict one (more open discussion between doctors and patients, more likely to get tested).
A practice of having no confidentiality (or very little) will ensure none of the benefits of a strict notion of confidentiality.
If a set of practices secures the greatest possible aggregate utility for all those affected, then we should adopt them and not adopt anything that undermines them.

Therefore, we should adopt a restricted rule of confidentiality.



This is severly confused. The above relates to doctor-patient confidentiality, and to the trade-off between the protection of personal information and the use of medical data for purposes that serve the common good. This is not an analogous issue to the basic need of large organisations to be able to communicate internally.


The hard part: when do we make the exceptions?" -
We need to be careful that the exceptions don't become the rule. The scope for interpretation is huge, of course. Also, referring again to Robb Smith's reservations, there's a world outside the West which can now also access intelligence documents. Some in that world hungry for revenge may not be as likely to cut a deal, but instead be prepared to use the information in more direct enmity. Except that when Smith says, 'You don’t just shit all over civilization and the rule of law because you can', it's kind of already happened. That it has is part of Wikileaks' own justification for its existence. They have reassuringly derived their standards from the United Nations and circulate the leaks to shame and name defaulters.

I'm sorry, but no, they don't. Practically all of what I have seen have been normal diplomatic reporting in which there are no defaulters, and no one to shame. They have not made any attempt whatsoever to restrict what is being published to documents that would uncover wrongdoing. In the Norwegian case, they have simply made it all available to one of the country's leading newspapers, who is almost daily publishing juicy cables from the US embassy in Oslo that comment on Norwegian politicians, US-Norwegian relations, political issues, bilateral issues. Which is of course extremely interesting to read, but other than satisfying our curiosities and selling newspapers it doesn't serve any useful or constructive purpose.

Speaking of which. Could you for your part please share what exactly in the leaked documentation supports the conclusions you draw from it? What is it that enable you to speak of "shitting all over civilization and the rule of law"? What exactly underpins this image of a thoroughly corrupted and criminal system?

It was inevitable, really, that it would come to this, given advances in education, computer sophistication and citizens' rights. The results are too complex to tell at this stage.

And not least, given declining standards of rationality and sense both in places of learning and the public at large, the stupidification caused by the mass media society, the self-glorification and narcissism of internet cowboys and the retreat of activism from any ideology or analysis. That is the really striking bit - the absence of analysis. Some sort of rational articulation of how this works, what it's going to achieve, why, in the service of what. Something to connect the actual content of what is being leaked to the claims about what exactly it shows. Nobody seems to miss it, or notice that it isn't there. Which I suppose is what you'd expect from a generation who thinks Roberto Calasso writes history.

My life or that of my children isn't going to be made better by people whose response to the complexities of international trade is to burn cars in Seattle, or who try to improve rule of law through information piracy. As far as I'm concerned, they're the Sarah Palins of the left.
 
Last edited:
Whether you realize it or not you are simply repeating the establishment position.

And whether you realise it or not, that isn't actually relevant.


Every issue you raise has been addressed in the media and if you were interested in seeing both sides you could easily do so without having others waste their time summarizing for you.

You complain that the information is being leaked in sections, claiming this shows the media savvy of the Wikileaks organization, and you may be right about that. Maybe they are trying to keep up interest by letting it out slowly, but they could just as easily be releasing it this way to give people a chance to actually read it without being overwhelmed by the volume.

Or maybe they are holding back things that would be damaging. We don't know.

So are you saying they should leak it all now? No. You want none of it leaked ever because you compare the government to a private corporation. But if a private corporation was doing what our government is doing that would certainly be newsworthy. We're not talking about trade secrets, we are talking about the way our government conducts itself on our behalf.

The US is involved in two major and very shady wars. Our former president admitted in his new book that he approved torture. Our current piece of shit is protecting him and Wikileaks shows us that "closing Guantanamo" meant hiding the prisoners somewhere else. That's relevant. That deserves to be known. If you don't want to know it don't read it.


"How far down the U.S. has slid can be seen, ironically enough, in a recent commentary in Pravda (that’s right, Russia’s Pravda): “What WikiLeaks has done is make people understand why so many Americans are politically apathetic … After all, the evils committed by those in power can be suffocating, and the sense of powerlessness that erupts can be paralyzing, especially when … government evildoers almost always get away with their crimes. …”

So shame on Barack Obama, Eric Holder, and all those who spew platitudes about integrity, justice and accountability while allowing war criminals and torturers to walk freely upon the earth. … the American people should be outraged that their government has transformed a nation with a reputation for freedom, justice, tolerance and respect for human rights into a backwater that revels in its criminality, cover-ups, injustices and hypocrisies."

You know what Dave, I don't think I'm going to waste any time replying to that. Good luck.
 
No, behind the Wikileaks fuss is a conviction in certain quarters that the government and business are fundamentally corrupted and evil to the core. Which, quite frankly, is the sort of extremist position with which it is no more possible to communicate than you can with a diehard maoist or a hillbilly gun nut or a nazi. It's not analysis, it's hysterics. But I digress. Again, you are confusing issues in the above. This does not do anything whatsoever to redress the protection of personal data against commercial use.

No, people are indignant mainly because they are ignorant and stupid. To be blunt... My life or that of my children isn't going to be made better by people whose response to the complexities of international trade is to burn cars in Seattle, or who try to improve rule of law through information piracy. As far as I'm concerned, they're the Sarah Palins of the left.

I think that the conviction that government and business are fundamentally corrupted and evil to the core is not a blanket one. It's disappointing to hear you say that people are indignant mainly because they are ignorant and stupid.

You say that the issue is and will remain what are the legitimate limits of confidentiality. Precisely, quite similar to deciding about medical cases. The Harm and Vulnerability principles illustrate primary concerns in sharing or withholding information. Unfortunately it appears that some of the leaked documents name Afghanis who may now be put in mortal danger at home.

The Norwegian approach is hardly the common example, is it? It sounds wonderful! Like most things in life, it can be hard for people who haven't experienced shoddy treatment to understand or even believe how others might be mashed by the bureaucratic machine.

Speaking of "shitting all over civilization and the rule of law", and of educated criminals who work within the law, it seems that Wikileaks hasn't yet produced much that is overarchingly decisive in that respect - http://www.payvand.com/news/10/dec/1064.html , except that they are alerting more people about what's being done in their country's name. The illegal attacks on, and abuse of citizens and detainees, in Iraq, remain the best examples, but government policies on mortgage and banking regulation, and the expansion of corporate liberties as citizens are increasingly monitored, restricted and jailed in profit-making warehouses, show that the law itself is part of the problem. Wikileaks is giving authorities a taste of their own medicine and the ensuing chaos shows that while two wrongs don't make a right, change is needed and desired.

Regarding analysis and selective release of documents, here's an argument that the leaks are not indiscriminate - http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...criminately-leaking-thousands-documents.shtml

There's a difference between doing violence e.g. burning cars, and releasing information, which is more like a twist on passive resistence.

A lengthy opinion on everything Wikileaks that incorporates many of your problems with the operation was posted by someone called Bruce Sterling who is more familiar than most with the world of hackers, the philosophical history behind it, and Julian Assange himself who he calls a sociopath - http://www.webstock.org.nz/blog/2010/the-blast-shack/ . He names the distasteful, sensationalist aspects and argues well that the importance of protecting discretion in diplomatic dealings should be equal to the right to transparency. However his conclusion is that something good, in the sense of improving business as usual, and perhaps forcing politicians and leaders all over the world to face their own, and each other's, far-reaching foibles, may yet come of it all.

Happy New Year - to peaceful co-existence! :)
 
And whether you realise it or not, that isn't actually relevant.




You know what Dave, I don't think I'm going to waste any time replying to that. Good luck.

That's because you decide what's relevant. The issues you raise have been addressed and you choose to ignore it and continue posting your impression of the motives of those behind the leaks. You call them anarchists which they are not. But that's telling really, because your issue is that they don't respect the authority of the government in the same way you do. Some people want a Mommy and Daddy their whole life and when they grow up it's the police and the government. It makes them feel safe. When someone attacks it it's like an attack on their emotional security.

You believe you can understand their philosophy while at the same time you complain that all they did was release information with no analysis.

I respect your ability to express your opinions well, but you clearly have an emotional bias in this and I don't expect you will realize that soon.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That's because you decide what's relevant. The issues you raise have been addressed and you choose to ignore it and continue posting your impression of the motives of those behind the leaks. You call them anarchists which they are not. But that's telling really, because your issue is that they don't respect the authority of the government in the same way you do. Some people want a Mommy and Daddy their whole life and when they grow up it's the police and the government. It makes them feel safe. When someone attacks it it's like an attack on their emotional security.

You believe you can understand their philosophy while at the same time you complain that all they did was release information with no analysis.

I respect your ability to express your opinions well, but you clearly have an emotional bias in this and I don't expect you will realize that soon.

:)

Great stuff. Pseudo-psychologising about people you've never met in order to not have to deal with actual arguments - the lowest and most embarrassing form of argument known to man. But then you're not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you Dave. After all, you've yet to master basic semantics, to say nothing of logic, so I guess I really shouldn't complain.
 
Last edited:
all you're responding to is my quack psychoanalysis, which is telling in itself...

I think it's a fair trade for your willfully uninformed analysis of what the issues really are here.
 
Good article weighing up how Wikileaks might be impacting on the press:

"...Millions of words and a good deal of hot air have been spent on the WikiLeaks phenomenon, some, more illuminating than many, on this website.[1] Opinion runs the gamut of emotions: in the USA it stops little short of outright panic and calls for the execution of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange on a charge of "treason" – though even Fox TV also takes full advantage of the leaks to sex up its evening broadcasts. Others concentrate on securing his arrest and extradition on what appear to be spurious charges of rape in Sweden. Among more rational voices there seems to be a consensus that Assange and his team have taken freedom of expression and transparency to an unprecedented level. Not since the darkest days of glavlit and censorship in the Soviet Union has free speech been so fashionable a cause.

Others, however, argue that the link between press and Internet has been irrevocably changed for the worse; yet others that the symbiosis demonstrated between the print media and the new technology has given the latter a new lease of life at a moment it needed it most. As Marc-Olivier Padis, editor of the journal Esprit, points out in a forthcoming issue, opinions have an inconvenient habit of dividing along the lines of that small and happy band chosen for the publication of the WikiLeaks data – New York Times, Guardian, Le/ Monde, El Pais and Der Spiegel – and their rivals, who could only look on with envy..."
http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkin...democracy+(openDemocracy)&utm_content=Twitter
 
Do you think current uprising in North Africa and Arabic countries are triggered by wikileaks?
 
Do you think current uprising in North Africa and Arabic countries are triggered by wikileaks?

Why would they be?
 
Back
Top Bottom