Morrissey has gone too far this time!!!

Reggie Pepper said:
apart from owing his fame and fortune to Marr, Joyce and Rourke he also owes a large debt of gratitude to all of the aforementioned!
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I think Moz put it best when he said "If it wasn't for The Smiths, Rick and Pete wouldn't have made it past Piccadilly Circus"

Seriously, no matter how good Andy and Mike were, the fame came from Morrissey's words, both in song and in interview, and Johnny's music.

Conceding the point that I think Andy and Mike were above average musicians, they ultimately had no impact positive or negative on the success of The Smiths.

Bass players and Drummers that make a difference are so rare they can be named in a short list:

Geddy Lee
Flea
Les Claypool
Neil Peart
John Bonham

Even The Who would have been great without Keith Moon.
 
I mostly agree with bored (see above post), except I don't know that The Who would have been great without Moon. They certainly weren't great after he died, but that might have more to do with getting auld.
 
Worm said:
Mike Joyce is a great drummer. One listen to "Rank" should convince anyone of that fact. All the talk about the court case, whether in support of him or not, shouldn't make us deaf to his talent.
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@ the risk of being accused (again) of kissing worm's arse, I applaude your post again.

This does say it all.
 
joroberts17 said:
Liking an individual's art means you must be their slave, literal or metaphorical, to the point where you offer to hold their member when they have to urinate.
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chica said:
C'mon drunken goldfish, like you wouldn't! :p :
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If only that sentence had finished with 'member'... ;) :)

but this way :eek:
 
I don't want to make any judgements on the whole court case thing - I wasn't present there, I didn't see the evidence, and I don't know enough about it to know who is right and who is wrong. In any case, Morrissey is sure that he is right and that Joyce is a thief, and Mike Joyce is sure that he is right and that he was only fighting for what's rightfully his; I'm not sure what Johnny Marr thinks, and Andy Rourke seems to be the kind of person who wouldn't be bothered to push the whole thing if it had been just up to him. One thing that I am a bit puzzled by is that everybody forgets Marr alltogether and it all seems to be only a war between Morrissey and Joyce (it has to be said that Morrissey's statement have contributed to this a lot). I've seen some awfully biased programs that seemed aimed at presenting Morrissey as a greedy, arrogant monster (The Rise and Fall of The Smiths, anyone?). I don't quite see how Morrissey could have done it all on his own - surely if he is guilty of not treating Mike and Andy as deserved, then Marr is guilty of the same thing? but I digress. Anyway - I was really annoyed to se such blatant bias against Morrissey in some media, but do I think that Mike Joyce is a greedy monster? no, I am very sceptical about Morrissey's statements about Joyce as well. The truth is usually somewhere in between. But I have a feeling that Morrissey is exaggerating because he was really hurt by this case and the things that were said about him he felt disappointed and betrayed, and sadly, he has started looking differently at his whole past with these people when they were in The Smiths. I'm also under the impression that he has channelled all his general hatred and anger into Joyce. I do sometimes wish he would remember that it is easy to hate but it takes strength to be gentle and kind - but we can't always be strong, can we.

That said, his statements such as this one just make me laugh. :D There is something childish, funny, and in a weird way even endearing (!) in the way that he speaks openly about hating someone - it's like he has no sense of 'propriety', which is really what we've always loved about him, haven't we? And I don't agree with the poster who said that it's disgusting whenever you wish death on someone - be it Joyce or Bush. No, it's not. First of all, I don't think that Morrissey really wants any of those people to die - I think you are all aware of that - it's not like he's going to hire a hitman, plant a bomb, or shoot them! It's just his manner of expressing himself. And out of his 'I wish them dead' statements, this one is hardly the most shocking. His statement that he wished Johnny Rogan would die in a motorway pileup was a lot more absurd and unjustified.

On the other hand - there's nothing distasteful in saying that "Bush should have died" ot that he would marry them a person who would kill Thatcher - it wasn't even about those people as individuals, these were POLITICAL statements! And ones I would fully support. :) Saying that everyone would be happy to see Margaret on the guillotine sounds much stronger and more effective than something like "I think that Mrs Thatcher's government should be opposed and I hope that she will lose the next elections" - don't you think so?
 
As to the division of royalities: I do think that Joyce and Rourke should have gotten more than just 10% of the performance royalties. You could argue whether they deserved 25% each (yep, I certainly agree that Morrissey was more important to the performaces than Joyce), but for the rhythm section to receive only 20% together while the guitarist and singer get 40% each is a little bit too disproportionate, don't you think so?

I can't judge Mike's talent, as I'm not an expert on drummers, but arguing that he wasn't that good in the first place or that he could have been replaced is utterly beside the point. You do a certain job - you should get paid for it a certain amount which is considered appropriate for this job; it would be absurd if someone told you that you don't deserve it because someone else could have done your job. You would of course reply: well, why didn't you hire that other person then, if I wasn't good enough, or if anyone could have done it? But the point is, you have done that job, you, nor anyone else. Whether Joyce or Rourke could have been replaced doesn't make much difference - they were The Smiths' drummer and bassist, so they deserved to get paid for their performances.

An entirely different matter is whether the 2 of them knew and agreed with the 10% contract. I won't discuss that, as I don't have enough knowledge on the subject...
 
nightandday said:
I don't want to make any judgements on the whole court case thing - I wasn't present there, I didn't see the evidence, and I don't know enough about it to know who is right and who is wrong. In any case, Morrissey is sure that he is right and that Joyce is a thief, and Mike Joyce is sure that he is right and that he was only fighting for what's rightfully his; I'm not sure what Johnny Marr thinks, and Andy Rourke seems to be the kind of person who wouldn't be bothered to push the whole thing if it had been just up to him. One thing that I am a bit puzzled by is that everybody forgets Marr alltogether and it all seems to be only a war between Morrissey and Joyce (it has to be said that Morrissey's statement have contributed to this a lot). I've seen some awfully biased programs that seemed aimed at presenting Morrissey as a greedy, arrogant monster (The Rise and Fall of The Smiths, anyone?). I don't quite see how Morrissey could have done it all on his own - surely if he is guilty of not treating Mike and Andy as deserved, then Marr is guilty of the same thing? but I digress. Anyway - I was really annoyed to se such blatant bias against Morrissey in some media, but do I think that Mike Joyce is a greedy monster? no, I am very sceptical about Morrissey's statements about Joyce as well. The truth is usually somewhere in between. But I have a feeling that Morrissey is exaggerating because he was really hurt by this case and the things that were said about him he felt disappointed and betrayed, and sadly, he has started looking differently at his whole past with these people when they were in The Smiths. I'm also under the impression that he has channelled all his general hatred and anger into Joyce. I do sometimes wish he would remember that it is easy to hate but it takes strength to be gentle and kind - but we can't always be strong, can we.

That said, his statements such as this one just make me laugh. :D There is something childish, funny, and in a weird way even endearing (!) in the way that he speaks openly about hating someone - it's like he has no sense of 'propriety', which is really what we've always loved about him, haven't we? And I don't agree with the poster who said that it's disgusting whenever you wish death on someone - be it Joyce or Bush. No, it's not. First of all, I don't think that Morrissey really wants any of those people to die - I think you are all aware of that - it's not like he's going to hire a hitman, plant a bomb, or shoot them! It's just his manner of expressing himself. And out of his 'I wish them dead' statements, this one is hardly the most shocking. His statement that he wished Johnny Rogan would die in a motorway pileup was a lot more absurd and unjustified.

On the other hand - there's nothing distasteful in saying that "Bush should have died" ot that he would marry them a person who would kill Thatcher - it wasn't even about those people as individuals, these were POLITICAL statements! And ones I would fully support. :) Saying that everyone would be happy to see Margaret on the guillotine sounds much stronger and more effective than something like "I think that Mrs Thatcher's government should be opposed and I hope that she will lose the next elections" - don't you think so?
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Did you just discover how to type or something?
 
chica said:
Mike, it's good to see you too! :D
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Reggie doesn't sound like Mike, from what I've seen and heard of Mike in interviews and documentaries. and Mike never seemed particularly upset over Morrissey's expressions of hatred for him and always speaks about Morrssey with admiration. So, unless he is a completely different person privately and on the internet forum, it's not him...

.. but it might be a relative of his? ;)
 
actually mike joyce is an average drummer and
he was only ok on rank cos hed been drumming witht the smiths for a long ass time.
andy rourke however was and probably remains a good bass player.
 
I really can't believe what I've seen!!!!!!!

Doing a quick count it seems that this forum is split 70/30 in Mike Joyces favour!!! A short time ago it would have been 80/20 in Morrisseys favour! This has come as a total shock because it actually seems that some people have woken up to the situation!

Give yourselves a big pat on the back!!!


Reg
 
Re: I really can't believe what I've seen!!!!!!!

Reggie Pepper said:
Doing a quick count it seems that this forum is split 70/30 in Mike Joyces favour!!! A short time ago it would have been 80/20 in Morrisseys favour! This has come as a total shock because it actually seems that some people have woken up to the situation!

Give yourselves a big pat on the back!!!


Reg
Click to expand...
Or maybe many Morrissey fans are not as biased and blind as you were expecting them to be? I bet it comes as a great surprise, since we are supposed to be fanatics who pray in front of Morrissey's picture every night and cling to his every word as a revelation of God Allmighty... :p
 
Last edited:
This thread is closed - Joyce won 80/20

Sorry I doubted you!

Reg
 
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