Morrissey - great lyricist but no match for Bob Dylan!

[sparacus]

OK - lets be honest now. Moz is a great lyricist - witty and emotive. But Dylan is far superior in his use of complex poetics and imagery. I mean 'How Soon Is Now' lacks the vision of 'Mr Tambourine Man' or 'Ballad of a Thin Man'.

 

[Erik]

> OK - lets be honest now. Moz is a great lyricist - witty and emotive. But
> Dylan is far superior in his use of complex poetics and imagery. I mean
> 'How Soon Is Now' lacks the vision of 'Mr Tambourine Man' or 'Ballad of a
> Thin Man'.

That may quite possibly be the most asinine 4 sentences I have ever laid eyes upon.

 

[GenderNectar]

You should really stop smoking crack. It's starting to affect your logic.

 

[Mindy]

let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

bob dylan has spend the last 40 years singing the same damn song.

and is your name supposed to be sparTacus?

 

[sparacus]

> That may quite possibly be the most asinine 4 sentences I have ever laid
> eyes upon.

Or in other words:

"I have no arguments or evidence to offer to counter your post. Therefore I will post a pompous insult"

 

[sparacus]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> bob dylan has spend the last 40 years singing the same damn song.

> and is your name supposed to be sparTacus?

Excuse me ! But I am an acknowledged authority on the Smiths and know a great deal about their entire catalogue. As far as Dylan is concerned, the man has changed his style greatly over hi exceptional career. He's recorded in the folk style, acid rock style, country, gospel, blues . Morrissey has not produced the same variety of differing styles. Compare also the following lyrics:

MORRISSEY:

"Frankly Mr Shankley this position I've held,
It pays my way and it corrodes my soul"

DYLAN:

"Of war and peace the truth just twists
Its curfew gull it glides
Upon four -legged forest clouds
The cowboy angel rides"

The former is amusing & engaging but lacks imagery. wheras the Dylan lyric is rich in myriad meanings and images.

 

[Ahem. Hello.]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

So you pick one song which many have often already criticised the lyrics, and you act as though that makes Morrissey less of a lyricist than Dylan? f*** off! Comparing one of Morrissey's worst to what looks like it is probably one of Dylan's best, yeah...that's fair.

 

[Mindy]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> Excuse me ! But I am an acknowledged authority on the Smiths and know a
> great deal about their entire catalogue. As far as Dylan is concerned, the
> man has changed his style greatly over hi exceptional career. He's
> recorded in the folk style, acid rock style, country, gospel, blues .
> Morrissey has not produced the same variety of differing styles. Compare
> also the following lyrics:

you're an authority, yet you pick on the most commercially popular smiths song as well as the most atypical one? everyone knows that "how soon is now?" is not representative of the smiths' canon, musically or lyrically (although thematically, it is).

> MORRISSEY:

> "Frankly Mr Shankley this position I've held,
> It pays my way and it corrodes my soul"

> DYLAN:

> "Of war and peace the truth just twists
> Its curfew gull it glides
> Upon four -legged forest clouds
> The cowboy angel rides"

> The former is amusing & engaging but lacks imagery. wheras the Dylan
> lyric is rich in myriad meanings and images.

are you one of those people who looks to songs like "rocky raccoon" for deep spiritual meaning? just because someone uses a lot of inaccesible references and imagery doesn't make them a better writer. if that were true, than i guess nathaniel hawthorne and victor hugo would be the undisputed best authors ever.

in any case, you have no authority whatsoever to state anything but an opinion, so stop trying to act like you're the be-all end-all authority on rock music.

 

[sparacus]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> So you pick one song which many have often already criticised the lyrics,
> and you act as though that makes Morrissey less of a lyricist than Dylan?
> f*** off! Comparing one of Morrissey's worst to what looks like it is
> probably one of Dylan's best, yeah...that's fair.

Excuse me. Kindly refrain from hurling foul language and stck to intelligent discussion - thats if you are capable of said discourse.
To use another comparison, in 1997, Dylan released 'Time Out of Mind' - a stunning album acclaimed by the critics as a return to form and voted as one of the top albums of 1997 in many end of year critics polls. Meanwhile Moz released 'Maladjusted' an album panned by the crtics.

 

[sparacus]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> you're an authority, yet you pick on the most commercially popular smiths
> song as well as the most atypical one? everyone knows that "how soon
> is now?" is not representative of the smiths' canon, musically or
> lyrically (although thematically, it is).

> are you one of those people who looks to songs like "rocky
> raccoon" for deep spiritual meaning? just because someone uses a lot
> of inaccesible references and imagery doesn't make them a better writer.
> if that were true, than i guess nathaniel hawthorne and victor hugo would
> be the undisputed best authors ever.

> in any case, you have no authority whatsoever to state anything but an
> opinion, so stop trying to act like you're the be-all end-all authority on
> rock music.

Of course 'How Soon is Now' is representative of the Smiths canon. Its a Morrissey/Marr song. Would you rather I quote from or mention the likes of 'Golden Lights' or 'Work is a Four Letter Word'?
I was comparing Moz with Bob Dylan, not the Beatles, and therefore your reference to 'Rocky Racoon' is frankly rather odd . Complex imagery does suggest the writer has depth and skill - Morrissey simply lacks this 'string in his bow'.
I know a great deal about rock music and am an acknowledged authority on Morrissey.

 

[sparacus]

Re: You should really stop smoking crack. It's starting to affect your logic.

I do not smoke crack . I engage in intelligent discussion, something you are clearly incapeable of.

 

[Mindy]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> Of course 'How Soon is Now' is representative of the Smiths canon. Its a
> Morrissey/Marr song. Would you rather I quote from or mention the likes of
> 'Golden Lights' or 'Work is a Four Letter Word'?
> I was comparing Moz with Bob Dylan, not the Beatles, and therefore your
> reference to 'Rocky Racoon' is frankly rather odd . Complex imagery does
> suggest the writer has depth and skill - Morrissey simply lacks this
> 'string in his bow'.
> I know a great deal about rock music and am an acknowledged authority on
> Morrissey.

it is not representative of the smiths' canon. it is completely unlike any other smiths song for reasons i already mentioned. and as amen posted above, it's unfair to compare one of the worst smiths compositions with one of dylan's best. hello? and i alluded to the beatles because they're also known for using a lot of imagery -- yet a bunch of their songs make no sense or really have no deep, spiritual meaning behind them. the same goes for the smashing pumpkins. i love them, but a lot of their imagery is out there, and i would never say billy corgan is a better writer than morrissey simply because he uses imagery like a "bumblebee tongue." it's ridiculous to say that someone is a better writer because they use more imagery. does that mean hemingway is a bad writer due to his "hard, athletic prose"?

yes, an acknowledged authority on morrissey. right. whatever.

 

[david]

Bob Dylan

= over-rated, boring f***wit

 

[sparacus]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> it is not representative of the smiths' canon. it is completely unlike any
> other smiths song for reasons i already mentioned. and as amen posted
> above, it's unfair to compare one of the worst smiths compositions with
> one of dylan's best. hello? and i alluded to the beatles because they're
> also known for using a lot of imagery -- yet a bunch of their songs make
> no sense or really have no deep, spiritual meaning behind them. the same
> goes for the smashing pumpkins. i love them, but a lot of their imagery is
> out there, and i would never say billy corgan is a better writer than
> morrissey simply because he uses imagery like a "bumblebee
> tongue." it's ridiculous to say that someone is a better writer
> because they use more imagery. does that mean hemingway is a bad writer
> due to his "hard, athletic prose"?

> yes, an acknowledged authority on morrissey. right. whatever.

Your comments show a total lack of understanding of poetry. 'How Soon is Now' is a typical example of the kind of lyrics Moz was writing circa 1983/84 ie sad, longing and resigned to personal failure. Its completely typical - similar in style (directness) with 'Back to the Old House', 'Well I Wonder' etc.
Again I was talking about BOB DYLAN not the Beatles or Smashing Gherkins or whatever - not a difficult concept to grasp.
Great imagery is at the heart of great poetry. Hemmingway was a novelist - there is a difference between the art of novel writing and the art of poetics.

 

[sparacus]

Re: Bob Dylan

> = over-rated, boring f***wit

>

A risible opinion. Dylan is the finest lyricist in the history of popular music. He has mastered a phenomenal range of different styles and produced classic albums such as 'Blonde on Blonde' and 'Bringing it all Back Home'.
His website also has a superb discussion board which I post on frequently.

 

[Mindy]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> Your comments show a total lack of understanding of poetry. 'How Soon is
> Now' is a typical example of the kind of lyrics Moz was writing circa
> 1983/84 ie sad, longing and resigned to personal failure. Its completely
> typical - similar in style (directness) with 'Back to the Old House',
> 'Well I Wonder' etc.
> Again I was talking about BOB DYLAN not the Beatles or Smashing Gherkins
> or whatever - not a difficult concept to grasp.
> Great imagery is at the heart of great poetry. Hemmingway was a novelist -
> there is a difference between the art of novel writing and the art of
> poetics.

i know you aren't talking about these other people, but it boggles the mind that anyone would arbitrarily choose to compare bob dylan to morrissey, so why not throw in these other people as well? they're as random choices as bob dylan. i am an english major and poets use a lot more than just imagery to get their points across. yes, it's important, but poets also employ techniques used in other literary forms. similarly, some novelists also use copious amounts of imagery (i.e. hawthorne and hugo). you're making an unlikely comparison, so why can't i? what's good for the goose...

the actual words are what i'm talking about in "how soon is now?" no other smiths song is quite so overly dramatic (i.e. "i am the son and the heir of nothing in particular" with puns on sun and air) or quite so reviled by fans. it is NOT a characteristic song. any fan or music critic knows this.

as far as i'm concerned, bob dylan's songs are almost all long and rambling and boring. even if you disagree with me, bob dylan and morrissey's music invite no comparisons, so why make them. stop trying to show off. you just come off as a pretentious jerk.

 

[Ahem. Hello.]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> Your comments show a total lack of understanding of poetry. 'How Soon is
> Now' is a typical example of the kind of lyrics Moz was writing circa
> 1983/84 ie sad, longing and resigned to personal failure. Its completely
> typical - similar in style (directness) with 'Back to the Old House',
> 'Well I Wonder' etc.
> Again I was talking about BOB DYLAN not the Beatles or Smashing Gherkins
> or whatever - not a difficult concept to grasp.
> Great imagery is at the heart of great poetry. Hemmingway was a novelist -
> there is a difference between the art of novel writing and the art of
> poetics.

You're nobody.

If you're such an authority, how's come you would mention Golden Lights as something for you to quote from The Smiths, when it isn't a true Smiths song?
As for your point about Maladjusted and whatever Dylan album you mentioned, there's no point there at all. The critics often praise things which quite frankly are crap, then ignore or dig into things which are wonderful. What the critics say has no bearing on anything, those are the opinions of people who don't matter to me or most anyone else here. Anyone who pays mind to what the critics say is a fool with the inability to recognise that it's just the opinion of people like you, people who THINK they are an authority on something.

What you seem to not understand is that Morrissey and Dylan are two entirely different entities from two different generations of music in two different worlds with very different lives. Comparing the lyrics of the two is like comparing the sonnets of Shakespeare to the modern poems of Rod McKuen. Both are talented, well respected in their genres...but you cannot fairly say that one is better than the other lest you accept that such a statement is a matter of personal taste and not a fact.

So, as said before.
Kindly f*** off with your pretensious drivel.

 

[sparacus]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> i know you aren't talking about these other people, but it boggles the
> mind that anyone would arbitrarily choose to compare bob dylan to
> morrissey, so why not throw in these other people as well? they're as
> random choices as bob dylan. i am an english major and poets use a lot
> more than just imagery to get their points across. yes, it's important,
> but poets also employ techniques used in other literary forms. similarly,
> some novelists also use copious amounts of imagery (i.e. hawthorne and
> hugo). you're making an unlikely comparison, so why can't i? what's good
> for the goose...

> the actual words are what i'm talking about in "how soon is
> now?" no other smiths song is quite so overly dramatic (i.e. "i
> am the son and the heir of nothing in particular" with puns on sun
> and air) or quite so reviled by fans. it is NOT a characteristic song. any
> fan or music critic knows this.

> as far as i'm concerned, bob dylan's songs are almost all long and
> rambling and boring. even if you disagree with me, bob dylan and
> morrissey's music invite no comparisons, so why make them. stop trying to
> show off. you just come off as a pretentious jerk.

Oh please! You call me pretentious and yet the above diatribe is riddled with inaccurate comments and unsubstantiated assertions.

1) 'How Soon is Now' is certainly not "reviled by fans" - not in the UK anyway. I knew plenty of fans who thought it the greatest Smiths song - I was THERE in the 80s - you sound like a very young person who has come to the Smiths second hand.

2) There are VERY GOOD reasons for comparing Dylan & Moz. Both are acclaimed primarily as lyricists and have been described as poets. Both have been heroes & indeed 'spokesmen' for a generation of young people and both have addressed wider social concerns in their music as opposed to being pure entertainment.

3) Your comment "any fan or critic knows this" is so sweeping & shallow that is suggests a great deal about your own ignorance.

 

[Leafs]

I don't quite agree with you, but I respect your opinion. To be honest, I haven't heard that much of Dylan. So in that regard I am not saying that you are wrong, because I do not have a right to say so. Morrissey just speaks to me more that Dylan does (different generations/different subjects). I do want to applaud you in having an intelligent and respectful discussion. I will say this though, Johnny Marr did a cover of "Don't think twice, it's alright" and I though it was the best song in the show. Cheers.

 

[sparacus]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> You're nobody.

> If you're such an authority, how's come you would mention Golden Lights as
> something for you to quote from The Smiths, when it isn't a true Smiths
> song?
> As for your point about Maladjusted and whatever Dylan album you
> mentioned, there's no point there at all. The critics often praise things
> which quite frankly are crap, then ignore or dig into things which are
> wonderful. What the critics say has no bearing on anything, those are the
> opinions of people who don't matter to me or most anyone else here. Anyone
> who pays mind to what the critics say is a fool with the inability to
> recognise that it's just the opinion of people like you, people who THINK
> they are an authority on something.

> What you seem to not understand is that Morrissey and Dylan are two
> entirely different entities from two different generations of music in two
> different worlds with very different lives. Comparing the lyrics of the
> two is like comparing the sonnets of Shakespeare to the modern poems of
> Rod McKuen. Both are talented, well respected in their genres...but you
> cannot fairly say that one is better than the other lest you accept that
> such a statement is a matter of personal taste and not a fact.

> So, as said before.
> Kindly f*** off with your pretensious drivel.

Your use of foul language and inability to spell pretentious reveals you to be profoundly dim. However I will try to instill some sense into the misty recesses of your darkling mind.
The fact that 'Golden Lights' is a cover is precisely why I used the example - I was trying to point out that 'How Soon is Now' is far more typical of the Smiths' canon.
Critics are the experts and therefore their opinions count for more than yours. And Dylan & Moz have many different points of reference in common such as iconic status, youth spokesmen attributes and primarily lyrical artistes.