Morrissey and love, relationships etc...

[Dazza]

Evening - I've no wish to turn this into a gossipy type thread, but wanted to make an observation and see what people thought.

There are of course 'gaps' in Moz's history in this area and I don't think we know everything, nor have we any natural right to. His private business is entirely that and how much of it he chooses to share with the world is up to him.

What I've noticed from Morrissey lyrics and delivery thereof (particularly but not Smiths ones) is the way in which Morrissey relates to this area of life in and of itself. I dunno where he is in his heart and mind with it at the moment, but if you look at certain things there's a sort of idealisation of how he'd expect a loving relationship to pan out and perhaps his gloom/despair and sense of 'giving up' in this area comes down to a recognition that no 'boring and mechanical' relationship could ever meet up to his romantic expectation.

One of the most well-known and well-loved songs by the Smiths is of course There is a Light, the romanticism of which is beyond dispute.
Last Night I Dreamt appears to be about a one night stand or brief fling that promised to 'hit the spot' but didn't.
I Want the One I Can't Have is a song of pining, longing and infatuation - also see I Know It's Over, where the woman he loves is marrying someone else and Moz is borderline suicidal at having 'lost' her for good.
There's that line in Accept Yourself - others conquered love but I ran (I sat in my room and drew up a plan). Interesting that he thought love was something to be conquered, does that mean the person you desire is to be 'conquered' also?
Well I Wonder - more pining, longing.

I know Morrissey drew heavily on 'the past' when writing Smiths songs (especially the early ones) but his take on love appeared be somewhat teenager-ish, perhaps that's a big component of why younger people loved the Smiths so much.

You can see a thread where 'wanting the one he can't have' is seen as a sort of personal failure, you sense that Morrissey had a tendency to become infatuated with an object of his desire, rather than develop relationships in a more balanced way over time. Again a very 'young person' thing.

In his solo career there have been a few more like that but there's a recurring thread of having 'given up' on the whole thing (I'm the End of the Family Line, Will Never Marry, I'm Ok by Myself). I can't believe that Morrissey would struggle desparately to attract interest or attention so can only conclude that nothing quite 'measures up' to the expectations he would have of such a relationship.

Which poses a question...were those expectations always the issue? There was of course Jake in the mid 90s (and I don't wanna agonise over old ground) but there seemed to be an interesting musical transition. Was 'Now My Heart is Full?' about the honeymoon period with him? As we know two songs on Southpaw are about their split and Moz trying to get some catharsis/closure on the thing.

He oscilates wildly (pun intended) between clinging to hope (my faith in love is still devout, I know it's gonna happen someday) and giving up.

My personal here is that Morrissey's take on this area of life is probably over-romanticised, emeshed with the narratives of love songs and fairytales etc. The reality could ultimately never measure up and so he ultimately decides to be on his own, or accepts that 'what he wants' might never happen. It's his life and good luck to him. I just don't think 'normal' or 'boring' does it for Moz at all, for whatever reason and...why waste everybody's time.

I just hope I've handled the topic sensitively and would appreciate your thoughts on the topic. Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

...also see I Know It's Over, where the woman he loves is marrying someone else and Moz is borderline suicidal at having 'lost' her for good.

Morrissey being Morrissey, I've always read the lyrics of this song as the narrator being borderline suicidal because the man he loves has gone off and married a woman (see also 'William It Was Really Nothing' etc).

 

[j*e*t]

Sometimes I think he's the very definition of a lovelorn lily; other times I think it's all an act. How can anyone really know with showbiz people? I do get the impression that he is easily bored, but I was brought up to believe that it's your own fault if you're bored - it's up to you to find something interesting to do or think about at all times.

 

[Amy]

He was just a late bloomer. He said that when you're in your teens and twenties and looking for love, being alone feels "desperately eternal" and you feel like it will never end, you'll never be happy and the whole thing consumes you. The thing with Morrissey (and I guess lots of people) is that although it did end and he did have relationships, they didn't necessarily make him 'happier' and the tone of the songs shifted to disappointment, boredom, realisation that relationships cannot magic depression away and that idealising a person isn't going to solve all your problems etc, etc. He just grew up. Lots of people settle down later in life but I think when you've spent that early time on your own, you become very very self-sufficient and stuck in your ways and you don't necessarily assume that any situation will be forever. It must work the other way too, surely? There will be times when the Johnnys of the world in 40-year relationships get bored, wonder if they've missed out, wonder if 21 was a bit young to get married, etc. It comes down to what makes you happy.

 

[Еleanor]

shame on you. don't you understand that it's disgusting to delve so openly and tactlessly into a person's personal life, you pick at it there, like in someone else's underpants. you have no conscience and no sense of tact. as if you are not looking at a person, but an animal that you are dissecting. animals.

 

[Еleanor]

and this is called civility?you're cavemen.

 

[Dazza]

He was just a late bloomer. He said that when you're in your teens and twenties and looking for love, being alone feels "desperately eternal" and you feel like it will never end, you'll never be happy and the whole thing consumes you. The thing with Morrissey (and I guess lots of people) is that although it did end and he did have relationships, they didn't necessarily make him 'happier' and the tone of the songs shifted to disappointment, boredom, realisation that relationships cannot magic depression away and that idealising a person isn't going to solve all your problems etc, etc. He just grew up. Lots of people settle down later in life but I think when you've spent that early time on your own, you become very very self-sufficient and stuck in your ways and you don't necessarily assume that any situation will be forever. It must work the other way too, surely? There will be times when the Johnnys of the world in 40-year relationships get bored, wonder if they've missed out, wonder if 21 was a bit young to get married, etc. It comes down to what makes you happy.

Thanks for that - and relationships aren't the panacea some make them out to be, for sure.

A bad one is an order of magnitude worse than flying solo...

 

[gashonthenail]

My take on Moz is this. He has loved people - they haven't loved him back. People have loved him - he hasn't loved them back. And the whole idea of finding a 'life partner' and 'settling down' just hasn't seemed like it is ever going to happen, or even that he wants it to happen. Privacy and personal freedom are important to him. Relationships are really about giving up freedom in many ways. I think that maybe with Jake he came close to finding something like that, but it didn't work out. But really, who cares? It's Moz's business, and none of ours. I'm glad for him though that he clearly was able to relax a bit in life and have a sexual relationship of some kind. Being some sort of Kenneth Williams type figure and being so uptight that you can't even let someone touch you must be an awful way to live.

 

[Dazza]

My take on Moz is this. He has loved people - they haven't loved him back. People have loved him - he hasn't loved them back. And the whole idea of finding a 'life partner' and 'settling down' just hasn't seemed like it is ever going to happen, or even that he wants it to happen. Privacy and personal freedom are important to him. Relationships are really about giving up freedom in many ways. I think that maybe with Jake he came close to finding something like that, but it didn't work out. But really, who cares? It's Moz's business, and none of ours. I'm glad for him though that he clearly was able to relax a bit in life and have a sexual relationship of some kind. Being some sort of Kenneth Williams type figure and being so uptight that you can't even let someone touch you must be an awful way to live.

I take your point - and I'm as sensitive as you as knowing not to intrude into gory details etc. None of us like it.

I suppose the point of the post was to ask if Morrissey's 'version of love' or 'perception of what love is' might be the problem. Hey, people are flawed and some don't handle that especially well - especially when you throw their crazy friends and relatives into the mix. I agree that there's a freedom trade off with relationships and that's a smart point to make. Hence a bad one being worse than being on your own.

With Morrissey I can't help but think that the landscape is more complicated, his period of infatuation for skinheads and rough guys in the 90s was peculiar at first glance but might be more revealing. I wonder if he has a desire to fix 'damaged' people seeing as he spent years singing through that lens himself and has probably got an affinity with them. It's like he sees himself as being a member of 'the world of the damaged' almost to the extent of owing a degree of loyalty and affinity to them.

This makes for some great songwriting (Mozzer's empathy does seem more cognitive than affective but it's there as he's the talented guy he is). Perhaps the people who loved him were too 'balanced' and 'normal' for him and didn't hit a particular spot he needed to be hit?

I think 'I want the one I can't have' is a very revelatory song in this respect. Tells you a lot about his mindset.

 

[Amy]

Thanks for that - and relationships aren't the panacea some make them out to be, for sure.

A bad one is an order of magnitude worse than flying solo...

Of course. And I suppose when you've had quite a few and they've not worked out, a person can become very jaded and you see that in some Moz songs as well. The effort to keep trying when you've been bruised etc and the toll that takes.

 

[Amy]

shame on you. don't you understand that it's disgusting to delve so openly and tactlessly into a person's personal life, you pick at it there, like in someone else's underpants. you have no conscience and no sense of tact. as if you are not looking at a person, but an animal that you are dissecting. animals.

Ridiculous comment. Morrissey has diarised his life in song for 40 years, there is nothing at all wrong with discussing one of his key lyrical themes and ideas.

 

[postwoman.]

Ridiculous comment. Morrissey has diarised his life in song for 40 years, there is nothing at all wrong with discussing one of his key lyrical themes and ideas.

you do not distinguish well between the concepts of a lyrical hero and an author. Morrissey has never spoken publicly about his personal life. The fact that in this case, they may coincide is not our business. The purpose of his creativity is not to demonstrate to us his cowards (with whom he f***ed, how many times and how often), but to awaken emotions in a person, to make him empathize. Everything he said and wrote about his personal life was very generalized. About one famous man who rinsed his underwear too much in public, he said that it would be better for him to shut up. Because any educated person understands that it is indecent and disgusting to flaunt your personal life and even more so to discuss the details of someone else's personal life. You don't understand Morrissey, his work and your comment is just ridiculous.
PS. I can't log into my account yet (temporarily blocked)

 

[Dazza]

you do not distinguish well between the concepts of a lyrical hero and an author. Morrissey has never spoken publicly about his personal life. The fact that in this case, they may coincide is not our business. The purpose of his creativity is not to demonstrate to us his cowards (with whom he f***ed, how many times and how often), but to awaken emotions in a person, to make him empathize. Everything he said and wrote about his personal life was very generalized. About one famous man who rinsed his underwear too much in public, he said that it would be better for him to shut up. Because any educated person understands that it is indecent and disgusting to flaunt your personal life and even more so to discuss the details of someone else's personal life. You don't understand Morrissey, his work and your comment is just ridiculous.
PS. I can't log into my account yet (temporarily blocked)

as the starter of this thread I feel some sort of personal responsibility - no offence was intended and I apologise for any meaningful offence taken.

That said, you can't let Morrissey release 'the national front disco' and then suggest his politics is somehow above discussion on the grounds of 'privacy' or whatever. It really is disingenuous to have it both ways or attempt to. Sorry.

Morrissey puts his perspective on love and relationships out there in the form of his songs. Dissections of 'meanings' have been going on forever and are totally legitimate.

For what it's worth I'm a creator and performer myself - google me by all means. And dissect away. I asked for it I guess.

I hope Moz is happy and thriving, whether single or with a significant other - more than anything I hope he has evolved to the point where one person 'not wanting him' isn't seen as some personal disaster or failure. He has so much to be proud of, flaws aside.

I have tried to handle this in a sensitive way and apologise to anyone who feels that I have failed. Sorry.

 

[postwoman]

as the starter of this thread I feel some sort of personal responsibility - no offence was intended and I apologise for any meaningful offence taken.

That said, you can't let Morrissey release 'the national front disco' and then suggest his politics is somehow above discussion on the grounds of 'privacy' or whatever. It really is disingenuous to have it both ways or attempt to. Sorry.

Morrissey puts his perspective on love and relationships out there in the form of his songs. Dissections of 'meanings' have been going on forever and are totally legitimate.

For what it's worth I'm a creator and performer myself - google me by all means. And dissect away. I asked for it I guess.

I hope Moz is happy and thriving, whether single or with a significant other - more than anything I hope he has evolved to the point where one person 'not wanting him' isn't seen as some personal disaster or failure. He has so much to be proud of, flaws aside.

I have tried to handle this in a sensitive way and apologise to anyone who feels that I have failed. Sorry.

thank you for this message. since the truth is more expensive than some personal preferences, I must admit that you have convinced me that within certain limits this topic can be discussed if we are talking about a public person who is not against it himself.

 

[Amy]

you do not distinguish well between the concepts of a lyrical hero and an author. Morrissey has never spoken publicly about his personal life. The fact that in this case, they may coincide is not our business. The purpose of his creativity is not to demonstrate to us his cowards (with whom he f***ed, how many times and how often), but to awaken emotions in a person, to make him empathize. Everything he said and wrote about his personal life was very generalized. About one famous man who rinsed his underwear too much in public, he said that it would be better for him to shut up. Because any educated person understands that it is indecent and disgusting to flaunt your personal life and even more so to discuss the details of someone else's personal life. You don't understand Morrissey, his work and your comment is just ridiculous.
PS. I can't log into my account yet (temporarily blocked)

Lyrical hero?
He sings his life, he always has. Moz might be private and quiet offstage but what's who he was even before fame, it has nothing to do with avoiding "indecency". God knows, he's written 'indecent' lyrics enough times. I think I understand him just fine, thanks. You sound uptight and silly.

 

[postwoman]

Lyrical hero?
He sings his life, he always has. Moz might be private and quiet offstage but what's who he was even before fame, it has nothing to do with avoiding "indecency". God knows, he's written 'indecent' lyrics enough times. I think I understand him just fine, thanks. You sound uptight and silly.

you sound one-sided and narrow-minded

 

[Amy]

you sound one-sided and narrow-minded

You're not even making sense. Morrissey has been a public figure for 40 years and in that time, he has written endlessly about loneliness, love, sex, depression etc, etc. From the very first Smiths album, it has been one of his primary concerns. He has acknowledged relationships and disappointments plenty of times and wrote about them in his memoir. To think you can 'ban' fans from talking about those things because he's such a sensitive flower is laughable.

 

[Dazza]

you do not distinguish well between the concepts of a lyrical hero and an author. Morrissey has never spoken publicly about his personal life. The fact that in this case, they may coincide is not our business. The purpose of his creativity is not to demonstrate to us his cowards (with whom he f***ed, how many times and how often), but to awaken emotions in a person, to make him empathize. Everything he said and wrote about his personal life was very generalized. About one famous man who rinsed his underwear too much in public, he said that it would be better for him to shut up. Because any educated person understands that it is indecent and disgusting to flaunt your personal life and even more so to discuss the details of someone else's personal life. You don't understand Morrissey, his work and your comment is just ridiculous.
PS. I can't log into my account yet (temporarily blocked)

as the starter of this thread I feel some sort of personal responsibility - no offence was intended and I apologise for any meaningful offence taken.

That said, you can't let Morrissey release 'the national front disco' and then suggest his politics is somehow above discussion on the grounds of 'privacy' or whatever. It really is disingenuous to have it both ways or attempt to. Sorry.

Morrissey puts his perspective on love and relationships out there in the form of his songs. Dissections of 'meanings' have been going on forever and are totally legitimate.

For what it's worth I'm a creator and performer myself - google me by all means. And dissect away. I asked for it I guess.

I hope Moz is happy and thriving, whether single or with a significant other - more than anything I hope he has evolved to the point where one person 'not wanting him' isn't seen as some personal disaster or failure. He has so much to be proud of, flaws aside.

I have tried to handle this in a sensitive way and apologise to anyone who feels that I have failed. Sorry.

You're not even making sense. Morrissey has been a public figure for 40 years and in that time, he has written endlessly about loneliness, love, sex, depression etc, etc. From the very first Smiths album, it has been one of his primary concerns. He has acknowledged relationships and disappointments plenty of times and wrote about them in his memoir. To think you can 'ban' fans from talking about those things because he's such a sensitive flower is laughable.

Thanks. I think postwoman has evolved her view somewhat and that's great.

You can't put your take on life in the public domain and then require people not to discuss the meanings of what you are singing/saying on the grounds of 'privacy' or whatever. You put it up there, people will line up to discuss meanings thereof.

No offence or unpleasantness was intended...all I'll say is if Morrissey didn't want his work dissected he should probably not have put it 'out there' to a mass audience. Leave it at that.

 

[postwoman]

as the starter of this thread I feel some sort of personal responsibility - no offence was intended and I apologise for any meaningful offence taken.



Thanks. I think postwoman has evolved her view somewhat and that's great.

You can't put your take on life in the public domain and then require people not to discuss the meanings of what you are singing/saying on the grounds of 'privacy' or whatever. You put it up there, people will line up to discuss meanings thereof.

No offence or unpleasantness was intended...all I'll say is if Morrissey didn't want his work dissected he should probably not have put it 'out there' to a mass audience. Leave it at that.

That's not what I wrote about. you're not taking apart his work. it's strange to me that it's so difficult to explain that work, creativity and personal sex life are not the same thing. it doesn't matter if he sings about his life or not. a work of art is always more than just a reflection of your personal life. perhaps I have too high an opinion of the work of this singer.
I'm sorry. I went to meet you because you gave me a tactful and polite answer. I'm always ready to give in to such people. also, if I have such a point of view, it does not mean that I demand that you get off this planet. Yes, I have such a perception. and why should it be the same for everyone? No, it shouldn't.
In turn, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

 

[postwoman]

You're not even making sense. Morrissey has been a public figure for 40 years and in that time, he has written endlessly about loneliness, love, sex, depression etc, etc. From the very first Smiths album, it has been one of his primary concerns. He has acknowledged relationships and disappointments plenty of times and wrote about them in his memoir. To think you can 'ban' fans from talking about those things because he's such a sensitive flower is laughable.

don't be such arrogant who only see and hear themselves. then you will see that maybe you also don't understand this world and everything that happens in it so perfectly.