Gayest Morrissey music video

[Uncleskinny]

Washing hands?

Of what? This is my first comment on the subject. In my opinion there's more important things in peoples lives than to get incandescent about a post on a website. Surely?

P.

 

[mikael]

Of what? This is my first comment on the subject. In my opinion there's more important things in peoples lives than to get incandescent about a post on a website. Surely?

P.

Surely

 

[Sydney Sneed]

Let us remember that this is in response to the poll "The Gayest Morrissey Video", which was a post on an internet site.

My post, which I am not sure that you've read, was largely in response to remarks made in this thread--remarks about sore posteriors, hypersensitive men, and "militant poof(s)." That is obvious. These posts reveal a heated bigotry in which a responsible moderator might have taken an interest. They furthermore regurgitate the classic hallmarks of bigotry in general: insistence that the minority's persecution is a fiction; insistence that one's own signs of bigotry are simply common speech, reviled by the unnatural outsider (Sartre's Anti-Semite and Jew is particularly good on this, and relevant to this discussion--for those who aren't committed to derailing it); insistence that the minority seeks to control the behavior of the majority; and so on and so on. As I complained in a past thread, however, moderators here confine themselves to policing bigotry against racial minorities--specifically, Asian-Americans--and show stunningly little interest in reprimanding posts expressing anti-gay bigotry. (That thread was successfully "hijacked," a practice another moderator recently recommended. Amusingly, I see it has now been moved from "Site Feedback" to "Off-topic." That is the point of moderators refraining from moderating, and allowing the hijacking, I suppose? Quite a system.)

That this is a "an internet site"--that means what? That social norms don't apply? I recommend that argument to the next person accused here of "trolling." The irony of its deployment by a moderator is breaking some kind of meter somewhere.

You have a very selective attitude about these matters. I'll be happy to elaborate, and quote from past posts of yours which I discovered when making my earlier thread, at a later time. I won't be steered too far from our subject at the moment, however.

And you've just invoked Godwin's Law.

P.

I have seen a few references to "Godwin's Law" on this site; but I have never known what exactly was being referenced. Presumably this was the work of some philosopher, someone specializing in the legacy of the Holocaust, who had been appalled by promiscuous invocations of Hitler in political argument. You invoke it now with such confidence.

But no. It "is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1989 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

Your relating it to my post is simpleminded. Godwin, it seems, would agree: "I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler or to Nazis to think a bit harder about the Holocaust." ...Whereas you, now, busy yourself asking people not to think--about the legacy of the persecution of the weak (in numbers, if nothing else), or about anything else. This "law" would seem to be cutting more your way than mine.

Once again, something that shouldn't need to be explained: As everyday language tends toward a series of simple words indicating praise or scorn, should a word specifically denoting a persecuted group come to stand in for all indications of scorn, that should obviously be taken seriously as an indication of bigotry.

"Lame," previously denoting the crippled, became "gay," previously denoting homosexuals. That is a fact of American English, and American English eventually becomes British English, as a certain pop singer once sang. What do the origins have in common? Perceived weakness. Perceived uselessness. Perceived disposability. Nazi standards of human excellence, exactly as I said.

(On the other hand, the aggressive, the fierce, comes to be denoted as "cool"--and to go a long way in internet discourse, it seems.)

This is not hyperbole, the target of Godwin's Law. This is the historical reality of being perceived as weak. It can become the modern reality if you are in the wrong nation, under the wrong regime, as a great many people are, as we speak--as we speak about "gayness," and "fags."

I would suggest you educate yourself about the Holocaust before carrying on in future about this "law." It was a recent historical event in which the "gay" and the "lame" found themselves tortured and executed in mass. I recently read W.G. Sebald's Austerlitz, a novel which you might find more ingestible than a conventional history. You must spend a great deal of time on the unimportant internet, as you call it. Read something more important than this forum, perhaps, instead of telling others to stop thinking.

Language matters. Behavior matters. To go full-on eggheaded about this for a moment: I do not believe we are in an "end of history" era, or that any of us lives in a nation which deserves "exceptional" status, to do as it likes. I do not believe that having decades of civilization before you means that an infinity of civilization is laid out ahead of you, as a gift for having lately been good. Civilization, personal and otherwise, needs to be maintained, wherever or whenever you are--unless you are simply consciously against it. Slovenly and casually bigoted behavior is very much a part of consumerism. The philosophy bleeding out of some of the posts in this thread is simply the philosophy of the couch potato. He knows that nothing he does is of any importance--so shouldn't he be able to do as he likes? Yet these are the people who always hold a silent majority, and who determine political will.

The internet, incidentally, is the real world. You don't cease to be real when you're online. You cannot stand up from a computer, having done whatever you've done, and say: "Well, that didn't count." It was your life--it was you. You were an exhibitionist, or a liar, or a bigot--it was you.

End of speech. Mock me and celebrate yourself if you like. I'll log in again in another month or two. Or three.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

Why not refer to us as the "fags," as you've done several times in the past? The search function is available to anyone who'd like to confirm, moderators included.

Would you like to see me banned? Do I offend you? Does the word "gay" offend you? THere's something disturbing about that. That;s what you should be discussing, how it's disturbing that some gays are offended by their descriptor. Stop baiting and switching, I am not the problem. I am the gayest of all of you. Now grow up.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

Etymology of the word gay.

late 14c., "full of joy, merry; light-hearted, carefree;" also "wanton, lewd, lascivious" (late 12c. as a surname, Philippus de Gay), from O.Fr. gai "joyful, happy; pleasant, agreeably charming; forward, pert" (12c.; cf. O.Sp. gayo, Port. gaio, It. gajo, probably French loan-words). Ultimate origin disputed; perhaps from Frankish *gahi (cf. O.H.G. wahi "pretty"), though not all etymologists accept this. Meaning "stately and beautiful; splendid and showily dressed" is from early 14c. The word gay by the 1890s had an overall tinge of promiscuity -- a gay house was a brothel. The suggestion of immorality in the word can be traced back at least to the 1630s, if not to Chaucer:
But in oure bed he was so fressh and gay
Whan that he wolde han my bele chose.
Slang meaning "homosexual" (adj.) begins to appear in psychological writing late 1940s, evidently picked up from gay slang and not always easily distinguished from the older sense:
After discharge A.Z. lived for some time at home. He was not happy at the farm and went to a Western city where he associated with a homosexual crowd, being "gay," and wearing female clothes and makeup. He always wished others would make advances to him. ["Rorschach Research Exchange and Journal of Projective Techniques," 1947, p.240]
The association with (male) homosexuality likely got a boost from the term gay cat, used as far back as 1893 in Amer.Eng. for "young hobo," one who is new on the road, also one who sometimes does jobs.
"A Gay Cat," said he, "is a loafing laborer, who works maybe a week, gets his wages and vagabonds about hunting for another 'pick and shovel' job. Do you want to know where they got their monica (nickname) 'Gay Cat'? See, Kid, cats sneak about and scratch immediately after chumming with you and then get gay (fresh). That's why we call them 'Gay Cats'." [Leon Ray Livingston ("America's Most Celebrated Tramp"), "Life and Adventures of A-no. 1," 1910]
Quoting a tramp named Frenchy, who might not have known the origin. Gay cats were severely and cruelly abused by "real" tramps and bums, who considered them "an inferior order of beings who begs of and otherwise preys upon the bum -- as it were a jackal following up the king of beasts" [Prof. John J. McCook, "Tramps," in "The Public Treatment of Pauperism," 1893], but some accounts report certain older tramps would dominate a gay cat and employ him as a sort of slave. In "Sociology and Social Research" (1932-33) a paragraph on the "gay cat" phenomenon notes, "Homosexual practices are more common than rare in this group," and gey cat "homosexual boy" is attested in N. Erskine's 1933 dictionary of "Underworld & Prison Slang" (gey is a Scottish variant of gay).

The "Dictionary of American Slang" reports that gay (adj.) was used by homosexuals, among themselves, in this sense since at least 1920. Rawson ["Wicked Words"] notes a male prostitute using gay in reference to male homosexuals (but also to female prostitutes) in London's notorious Cleveland Street Scandal of 1889. Ayto ["20th Century Words"] calls attention to the ambiguous use of the word in the 1868 song "The Gay Young Clerk in the Dry Goods Store," by U.S. female impersonator Will S. Hays, but the word evidently was not popularly felt in this sense by wider society until the 1950s at the earliest.
"Gay" (or "gai") is now widely used in French, Dutch, Danish, Japanese, Swedish, and Catalan with the same sense as the English. It is coming into use in Germany and among the English-speaking upper classes of many cosmopolitan areas in other countries. [John Boswell, "Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality," 1980]
Gay as a noun meaning "a (usually male) homosexual" is attested from 1971; in M.E. it meant "excellent person, noble lady, gallant knight," also "something gay or bright; an ornament or badge" (c.1400).

It is a delightful word and a perfectly legitimate question. Which of his videos most encompasses this description? NOTHING to be ashamed about. We could also ask which video is the straightest? Are the hets going to throw a shitfit? It seems the concept of making the term gay a loaded word is most destructive by the gays themselves. Should GLAAD change their logo? THey use the word gay. I'm baffled by this discussion.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

End of speech. Mock me and celebrate yourself if you like. I'll log in again in another month or two. Or three.

This is because you are a coward.

 

[Dave]

Would you like to see me banned? Do I offend you? Does the word "gay" offend you? THere's something disturbing about that. That;s what you should be discussing, how it's disturbing that some gays are offended by their descriptor. Stop baiting and switching, I am not the problem. I am the gayest of all of you. Now grow up.

This is not all about you. The person actually makes a much better reasoned argument about the ignorant use of language on the site, yours included, and at some point you should choose your battles and drop this. It's fine to use a word carelessly as we all do but to then somehow turn it into a campaign to use the sort of language that CHILDREN are bullied with at school until they commit suicide makes you look really stupid.

 

[SparkleBoy]

I believe Morrissey had a relationship with Dirtfoot.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

This is not all about you. The person actually makes a much better reasoned argument about the ignorant use of language on the site, yours included, and at some point you should choose your battles and drop this. It's fine to use a word carelessly as we all do but to then somehow turn it into a campaign to use the sort of language that CHILDREN are bullied with at school until they commit suicide makes you look really stupid.

Fair enough DAVE. Perhaps Sydney "5 post" Sneed has won this one, though he was the one who made it about me. But he's still a coward.

 

[mikael]

I'm still curious about "gayness", what merits it etc.

 

[mikael]

And I'm still here.

 

[SparkleBoy]

I'm still curious about "gayness", what merits it etc.

I think it has to do with lots of penises flopping all over the place. Prancing, too. There is prancing involved. And of course feelings.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

I think it has to do with lots of penises flopping all over the place. Prancing, too. There is prancing involved. And of course feelings.

It's a person loving another person and having one particular thing in common: whatever parts are in their pants. Given this, sometimes gender identities are loosely expressed and "gayness" is a result of those anomolous gender identities, ie, swishiness, pursed lips, effeminance, etc. NOT something to be ashamed of or take offense at.

Unless Sparkleboy is summing it up tersely.

 

[SparkleBoy]

It's a person loving another person and having one particular thing in common: whatever parts are in their pants. Given this, sometimes gender identities are loosely expressed and "gayness" is a result of those anomolous gender identities, ie, swishiness, pursed lips, effeminance, etc. NOT something to be ashamed of or take offense at.

Unless Sparkleboy is summing it up tersely.

I see your point, but I definitely thought a lot of penises flopping all around was involved in gayness. I think you are minimizing the penis flopping.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

I see your point, but I definitely thought a lot of penises flopping all around was involved in gayness. I think you are minimizing the penis flopping.

If the penises are flopping around then they're doing it wrong. According to my friend gay men make amazing lovers.

 

[Dave]

It's a person loving another person and having one particular thing in common: whatever parts are in their pants. Given this, sometimes gender identities are loosely expressed and "gayness" is a result of those anomolous gender identities, ie, swishiness, pursed lips, effeminance, etc. NOT something to be ashamed of or take offense at.

Unless Sparkleboy is summing it up tersely.

So gay people are swishy and effeminate but you're not judging?

Just stop. You don't get it.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

So gay people are swishy and effeminate but you're not judging?

Just stop. You don't get it.

I said "sometimes." I will stop though. You have announced I do not get it, let's pretend that is the case.

 

[mikael]

I can't quote enough people apparantly, so basically, f*** off! It's like introducing your best friend as your "gay" friend, "Hi, I have a gay friend isn't that cute!". This shouldn't even come in to the equation.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

I can't quote enough people apparantly, so basically, f*** off! It's like introducing your best friend as your "gay" friend, "Hi, I have a gay friend isn't that cute!". This shouldn't even come in to the equation.

True. I agree.

So do you avoid gay bars because they stereotype the patrons?

 

[SparkleBoy]

This whole thread has gone to shit. The gayest Moz video is November, bar-none. What makes it gay? What makes anything gay? Well, first of all, as I have repeatedly stated, gayness involves lots of wieners. If there are wieners all over the place, they are gonna sometimes collide and that is really gay. That isn't a judgement. It's a fact. Now, when there are wieners and butts and the butts sometimes inhale the wieners, that is SUPER gay. But it can be equally gay if the owners of the wieners do a lot of prancing. It is a scientific fact that gay people prance. They also like the disco beat. In summary, the reason why November is by far the gayest Moz video is because it has a disco beat and he talks about sperming on a monster and he moves his wiener around a lot.

f*** ALL OF YOU RACISTS!