FOS discussion

What a strange thing to say. Like saying freedom of thought is over-rated. If you control speech then you control thought. What deeply disturbing or questionable motives do Amnesty International have I wonder when they defend poets who have been arrested and disappeared?
Freedom of speech is certainly something that is unusual and under valued in world history. No religions value freedom of speech. For most of world history other people have tried to control what we can say, what we can read, or watch, and ultimately, what we can think. It's only 50 years since they tried to ban Lady Chatterley's Lover. And only 100 years since they tried to ban Ulysses. Previously it was the religious, then the right, now it's the left. But the principle is the same - we know what is best for you to hear and see and read.
Freedom of speech is one of those things you only really notice and value when you don't have it any more. Go and live in China or Iran and say that freedom of speech is over-rated.
Ah so now you say this control has been on place for a long time and therefore is nothing to do with the lazy term “woke”.

If only you were consistent with your statements and rhetoric.

You state the left are now controlling thought. As someone more on the right I don’t see that at all. You mistake the right to think and speak with the right to hate.

Do you think Andrew Tate should be allowed to entice young men into being his followers to be manipulated into his ideas that women are there to be controlled by men and men are superior? Is that freedom ok? There is evidence from schools that teenagers are mentioning him and quoting him and agreeing with his ideas. Is that ok that our children are being influenced by such ideologies? I assume you would consider any attempt to stop that would be woke and on the left?

I assume from your post that you are fine with the freedom of the press we have in the Uk and don’t have in Iran and China as you state. And I therefore I also assume that you are therefore happy for journalists to write their editorial opinion regardless of whether you agree with that opinion? Consistency is key.
 
Ah so now you say this control has been on place for a long time and therefore is nothing to do with the lazy term “woke”.

If only you were consistent with your statements and rhetoric.

You state the left are now controlling thought. As someone more on the right I don’t see that at all. You mistake the right to think and speak with the right to hate.

Do you think Andrew Tate should be allowed to entice young men into being his followers to be manipulated into his ideas that women are there to be controlled by men and men are superior? Is that freedom ok? There is evidence from schools that teenagers are mentioning him and quoting him and agreeing with his ideas. Is that ok that our children are being influenced by such ideologies? I assume you would consider any attempt to stop that would be woke and on the left?

I assume from your post that you are fine with the freedom of the press we have in the Uk and don’t have in Iran and China as you state. And I therefore I also assume that you are therefore happy for journalists to write their editorial opinion regardless of whether you agree with that opinion? Consistency is key.
I've been saying that in almost every post on the subject that I've made. Woke is just a type of religious belief in an otherwise secular age. Like all religions, woke is anti-freedom of speech, because like all religions, it is based on irrational nonsense that doesn't stand up to serious debate, e.g. white people are born with the original sin of 'white privilege', or a man can be a woman if he believes he is. Just like the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ when the priest rings a little bell.
I have no idea what you mean by 'hate'. Hate really just means opinions that some people don't like. I certainly don't think that hate is a matter for the law. The police in the UK have made themselves a joke by concentrating on 'hate crime', whilst ignoring real crime in society, and real criminals in their very ranks. Good luck getting the police to respond to a burglary. But tell them your neighbour misgendered you - they will be round in a shot.
Andrew Tate got rich playing the role of a 'bad boy' We all love a bad boy. Most of what he said was a mix of the highly comical and satirical - and fairly sharp and astute. If he really has been a bad boy - that is for the courts to decide. Although the legal system in Romania does seem to leave a lot to be desired. I certainly don't think he is someone who should be banned. The only limits I would place on freedom of speech are incitement to commit a crime, shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and libel. Other than that - I would repeal all 'hate speech' legislation. Hate is too subjective a term for the law to intervene. And I certainly don't think it is hate to say that diversity is not necessarily a good thing, or that a man can't change sex. Both those things are opinions. We should never ban opinions. In the same way - I don't want to ban anyone who expresses woke opinions. It is absolutely fine to have those beliefs. Just don't then try to cancel or no-platform people who don't agree with them.
 
Many feminists have had their meetings 'cancelled' by Eventbrite.
And have you never heard of Kathryn Stott? Or Maya Forstater? Or Rosie Kay? Google them.

This has become a big deal. I didn't realise Nicola Sturgeon stepped down partly because of the dilemmas that arise as described by JK Rowling. A few similar situations simmering in Ireland have also pushed politicians into taking positions. The Taoiseach, PM Leo Varadker, who is openly gay, is favouring the protection of women over permitting all gender rights for violent men who transition - https://laois-nationalist.ie/2023/0...hanging-laws-around-trans-prisoners-varadkar/
 
This has become a big deal. I didn't realise Nicola Sturgeon stepped down partly because of the dilemmas that arise as described by JK Rowling. A few similar situations simmering in Ireland have also pushed politicians into taking positions. The Taoiseach, PM Leo Varadker, who is openly gay, is favouring the protection of women over permitting all gender rights for violent men who transition - https://laois-nationalist.ie/2023/0...hanging-laws-around-trans-prisoners-varadkar/
The issue of trans ideology - nothing to do with being trans or treating trans people with compassion and dignity - shows up quite like no other the irrationality of woke. Putting a male rapist in a female prison shows up the utter insanity of the proposition that a man is woman simply if he believes he is. And it shows utter contempt for working class women in prison. Like they don't deserve to be safeguarded. Utterly shameful. Woke ultimately is an attack on the enlightenment. It's post-rational. It's not even Marxist. Marx was a rationalist and a materialist. This is way beyond rationalism.
 
I've been saying that in almost every post on the subject that I've made. Woke is just a type of religious belief in an otherwise secular age. Like all religions, woke is anti-freedom of speech, because like all religions, it is based on irrational nonsense that doesn't stand up to serious debate, e.g. white people are born with the original sin of 'white privilege', or a man can be a woman if he believes he is. Just like the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ when the priest rings a little bell.
I have no idea what you mean by 'hate'. Hate really just means opinions that some people don't like. I certainly don't think that hate is a matter for the law. The police in the UK have made themselves a joke by concentrating on 'hate crime', whilst ignoring real crime in society, and real criminals in their very ranks. Good luck getting the police to respond to a burglary. But tell them your neighbour misgendered you - they will be round in a shot.
Andrew Tate got rich playing the role of a 'bad boy' We all love a bad boy. Most of what he said was a mix of the highly comical and satirical - and fairly sharp and astute. If he really has been a bad boy - that is for the courts to decide. Although the legal system in Romania does seem to leave a lot to be desired. I certainly don't think he is someone who should be banned. The only limits I would place on freedom of speech are incitement to commit a crime, shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and libel. Other than that - I would repeal all 'hate speech' legislation. Hate is too subjective a term for the law to intervene. And I certainly don't think it is hate to say that diversity is not necessarily a good thing, or that a man can't change sex. Both those things are opinions. We should never ban opinions. In the same way - I don't want to ban anyone who expresses woke opinions. It is absolutely fine to have those beliefs. Just don't then try to cancel or no-platform people who don't agree with them.
You do for the most part write the most inaccurate trite nonsense I have seen on this site for decades.

What has woke to do with all of the above?

You do realise that the very anti hatred legislation you are condemning as being woke and from the left was actually brought in by Douglas Hurd under Thatcher’s right wing government?

You will find many supporters of such anti discrimination and hatred legislation sitting on the Tory side of the house. This legislation is not owned by the left which would be pretty difficult since there hasn’t been a left based government for 13 years.

You have completely switched from what I was saying to talking about crimes. You weren’t talking about crimes, you were suggesting movies, books, albums etc etc are not being released because they are blocked by woke leftists. That is nonsense and unintelligent unfactual unsubstantiated rhetoric that belongs in the gutter and as a person on the right I can proudly say you are talking sh*te.

Back to your original point re freedom to speak rather than criminality. Do you think it is perfectly ok for the likes of Andrew Tate to be free to groom teenage boys online to support the ideas he has where women’s only purpose in life is to serve and pleasure men? Are you happy for that to be included as freedom to speak and freedom of thought? Do you like that his attacks on TERF feminists is gaining ground within schools?

You also then say you are fine with woke opinions as long as people don’t cancel opinions they don’t like. I’d like to remove the term woke for a minute because I find it a meaningless term that is usually used by people who are lazy with the debating skills and find it easy to just put people they don’t agree with into a box when in reality it’s not the case.

So back to Morrissey, who is no platform ing him or cancelling him? I don’t see any such activity. You moaned about the press on this matter but have now said you have no issue with the press expressing opinions. So if that is the case I assume you don’t therefore have a problem if the press have opinions about him and you believe they should be able to express that opinion so I am glad we got to that point eventually.

I’ve already said I care very little for your repeating points re a few terf thinking a 1.5% minority trans section of society presents a threat to their womanhood and whether they are bothered whether some of that 1.5% want to change their legal gender. Good luck to them I say. I don’t see anyone being silenced for their opinions on that from either side.

You can’t blame Morrissey’s old loyal fanbase for walking if they didn’t like what he said. That is their personal choice and their freedom to think and believe too. And it is not just coming from what you call the woke left. His comments on pedophilia have not been seen in good light by people from all over the political spectrum. Not many people on the right or far right would find such commentary as acceptable. There have been as many high profile people stating their dislike of him from both sides of the political spectrum. Has nothing to do with the left and nothing to do with anyone cancelling anyone. It is purely people choosing after years of following him that they no longer want to and that is freedom to think and freedom to choose.

And again if he wants to get his album out there no one is stopping him. He has the money to do it himself. If he so wants his fans to have it then no record industry could stop him.
 
This has become a big deal. I didn't realise Nicola Sturgeon stepped down partly because of the dilemmas that arise as described by JK Rowling. A few similar situations simmering in Ireland have also pushed politicians into taking positions. The Taoiseach, PM Leo Varadker, who is openly gay, is favouring the protection of women over permitting all gender rights for violent men who transition - https://laois-nationalist.ie/2023/0...hanging-laws-around-trans-prisoners-varadkar/
No one has said Nicola Sturgeon stepping down was anything to do with the transgender legislation that was unanimously voted in across all parties.

It was more to do with her plans on the next steps to independence regarding her desire to make the general election a single independence issue. It wasn’t popular within the party and she jumped just before it was going to be discussed at a special conference.
And she stated she was exhausted. She was in power for 9years which is a long time.
 
The issue of trans ideology - nothing to do with being trans or treating trans people with compassion and dignity - shows up quite like no other the irrationality of woke. Putting a male rapist in a female prison shows up the utter insanity of the proposition that a man is woman simply if he believes he is. And it shows utter contempt for working class women in prison. Like they don't deserve to be safeguarded. Utterly shameful. Woke ultimately is an attack on the enlightenment. It's post-rational. It's not even Marxist. Marx was a rationalist and a materialist. This is way beyond rationalism.
The decisions as to where that prisoner was sent was not made by the Scottish government but by the prison service and the prisoner was never around any women in the prison. She was isolated. You are again factually incorrect.

Your use of the term woke is just tiresome. The trans gender recognition act came into play in the uk in 2004 and was unanimously voted in across all parties.

The events surrounding that prisoner had nothing to do with the gender recognition act.

please stick to facts instead of terf rhetoric,
 
The issue of trans ideology - nothing to do with being trans or treating trans people with compassion and dignity - shows up quite like no other the irrationality of woke. Putting a male rapist in a female prison shows up the utter insanity of the proposition that a man is woman simply if he believes he is. And it shows utter contempt for working class women in prison. Like they don't deserve to be safeguarded. Utterly shameful. Woke ultimately is an attack on the enlightenment. It's post-rational. It's not even Marxist. Marx was a rationalist and a materialist. This is way beyond rationalism.
“Trans ideology” hilarious.

As opposed to feminist ideology

Is it lesbian ideology, gay ideology, black ideology?

Stupid terminology
 
This is JK Rowling's 2020 post, for anyone who's not aware - https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/...ns-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

American sociologist Evan Stark wrote a book called Coercive Control and was in Ireland explaining it a couple of years ago to relevant bodies working on changing the law to include it as a crime, since done. He's been influencing policy like that around the world. During his career, he provided expert court testimony for women who'd killed their partners in cases where they'd been tortured and went over the brink. He also has a trans son yet both are sympathetic in certain respects to JK Rowling's views.

I feel there are quite a few overlapping assertions and phenomena at play here that challenge at least my overall grasp, so looking again at more of Evan Stark's comments around that time might help. See what you think.

He argues for the primacy of sex/gender and race alongside traditional notions of labour as the principal category of valorisation in modern society. He got the impression much of the criticism of JK Rowling was about her purportedly relying more on a victim story rather than taking responsibility for what she said, and her analysing with a brand of feminism which sees women in history as something more than individuals,

Within the Marxist tradition, he says it's the 'structuralists' (like Foucault and Crenshaw) who are anti-subjective and who basically posit that identity/experience is a function of one's 'location' (hence an 'intersection), not an identity or any such.

Race theorists--some of whom like Kimberly he mainly agrees with-- also address the refugee 'invasion' of Europe. The fact that various groups because of their sexual orientation or ethnicity or handicap are claiming privileged positions in politics has, as far as he's concerned, nothing to do with the theory of intersectionality, though they may cite it as their rationale to gain a foothold.

Intersectionality, according to him, means locating yourself politically along the continuum of exploitation and mounting resistance accordingly.'Identity' here is not a particular subjectivity' (e..g 'Afro-Queer') or a sociological category (black, gay, male) but a political stance vis a vis particular rights claims and general alliances. He's hopeful that history-for the next few decades at least --is moving in this direction.

So is he agreeing many people are putting too much energy into the wrong fights? Or not? I like how much thought he's put into all this, which I respect, along with his experience, and his willingness to countenance and debate different views.

He agrees that it has not easy to articulate a unifying vision or theory, in part because recent crises are impacting so many different groups in such devastating ways. But the answer is not to tell people who have suddenly got their voice to stand back because its not their turn to make history. His intersectionality means first, recognizing the basis on which people come together (such as the huge Black Lives Matter protests in 2020). Through these organic voluntary shared actions will come ideas on how the prevailing forms of injustice, inequality and climate disaster can be overcome.

I like his take anyway.: )
 
The issue of trans ideology - nothing to do with being trans or treating trans people with compassion and dignity - shows up quite like no other the irrationality of woke. Putting a male rapist in a female prison shows up the utter insanity of the proposition that a man is woman simply if he believes he is. And it shows utter contempt for working class women in prison. Like they don't deserve to be safeguarded. Utterly shameful. Woke ultimately is an attack on the enlightenment. It's post-rational. It's not even Marxist. Marx was a rationalist and a materialist. This is way beyond rationalism.
You talk about rationalism but the whole argument that anti trans feminists use is one that carries zero rationalism.

Their whole view is based around risks to women from men legally changing their gender.

You also say that this happens just because a man believes he is a woman.

In reality for a man to legally change gender it can take more than 5 years. They have to first live as a woman for 2 years, then they have to have the approval of a psychiatrist that the man is indeed suffering from gender dysphoria . Then they have to have a series of appointments with a board of medical and legal experts at a gender clinic of which there are only 8 and the waiting lists for those clinics are several years. If they pass the final approval of that board then they get a certificate of their legal gender change.

In reality most trans gender people don’t do it because of the costs and the length of time it takes and the humiliating process of interrogation and medical and psychiatric analysis to prove that they truly suffer from dysphoria.

This idea that a man would go through that process purely because they want to rape a woman is just completely over the top and irrational. If a man wants to rape a woman there are far easier and quicker ways to get to that position than going through a possible 5 year process to legally change gender.

It’s just nonsense but wtf this has to do with Morrissey’s comments on freedom of speech or your irrational rhetoric that he has been silenced god only knows. I suspect you would bring this terf nonsense into every possible discussion. One could say that it is even woke.
 
This is JK Rowling's 2020 post, for anyone who's not aware - https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/...ns-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

American sociologist Evan Stark wrote a book called Coercive Control and was in Ireland explaining it a couple of years ago to relevant bodies working on changing the law to include it as a crime, since done. He's been influencing policy like that around the world. During his career, he provided expert court testimony for women who'd killed their partners in cases where they'd been tortured and went over the brink. He also has a trans son yet both are sympathetic in certain respects to JK Rowling's views.

I feel there are quite a few overlapping assertions and phenomena at play here that challenge at least my overall grasp, so looking again at more of Evan Stark's comments around that time might help. See what you think.

He argues for the primacy of sex/gender and race alongside traditional notions of labour as the principal category of valorisation in modern society. He got the impression much of the criticism of JK Rowling was about her purportedly relying more on a victim story rather than taking responsibility for what she said, and her analysing with a brand of feminism which sees women in history as something more than individuals,

Within the Marxist tradition, he says it's the 'structuralists' (like Foucault and Crenshaw) who are anti-subjective and who basically posit that identity/experience is a function of one's 'location' (hence an 'intersection), not an identity or any such.

Race theorists--some of whom like Kimberly he mainly agrees with-- also address the refugee 'invasion' of Europe. The fact that various groups because of their sexual orientation or ethnicity or handicap are claiming privileged positions in politics has, as far as he's concerned, nothing to do with the theory of intersectionality, though they may cite it as their rationale to gain a foothold.

Intersectionality, according to him, means locating yourself politically along the continuum of exploitation and mounting resistance accordingly.'Identity' here is not a particular subjectivity' (e..g 'Afro-Queer') or a sociological category (black, gay, male) but a political stance vis a vis particular rights claims and general alliances. He's hopeful that history-for the next few decades at least --is moving in this direction.

So is he agreeing many people are putting too much energy into the wrong fights? Or not? I like how much thought he's put into all this, which I respect, along with his experience, and his willingness to countenance and debate different views.

He agrees that it has not easy to articulate a unifying vision or theory, in part because recent crises are impacting so many different groups in such devastating ways. But the answer is not to tell people who have suddenly got their voice to stand back because its not their turn to make history. His intersectionality means first, recognizing the basis on which people come together (such as the huge Black Lives Matter protests in 2020). Through these organic voluntary shared actions will come ideas on how the prevailing forms of injustice, inequality and climate disaster can be overcome.

I like his take anyway.: )
Not sure how a thread about freedom of speech has become a terf discussion on transgender. Rowling’s argument is irrational and dull and not really relevant to this thread.
 
Not sure how a thread about freedom of speech has become a terf discussion on transgender. Rowling’s argument is irrational and dull and not really relevant to this thread.
Totally incorrect, it is absolutely relevant to this thread, no matter how many times you repeat that it is not. She was cancelled, she was blacklisted, she lost contracts, she lost rights to projects she was already involved in, are you on methamphetamines right now?

Because you type a lot and totally discount anything anyone else is saying, when they are, in fact, on topic. And it’s only your own repetition which is dull
 
Totally incorrect, it is absolutely relevant to this thread, no matter how many times you repeat that it is not. She was cancelled, she was blacklisted, she lost contracts, she lost rights to projects she was already involved in, are you on methamphetamines right now?

Because you type a lot and totally discount anything anyone else is saying, when they are, in fact, on topic. And it’s only your own repetition which is dull
Ridiculous. She was cancelled? Right now she is earning $100 million a year from the recently released hogwarts legacy computer game.

Of course she wasn’t cancelled.

How is that relevant to Morrissey’s statement about freedom of speech as this thread was about?

My interest and care in that woman is less than zero.

Anyone want to get back to the point re Morrissey?
 
Totally incorrect, it is absolutely relevant to this thread, no matter how many times you repeat that it is not. She was cancelled, she was blacklisted, she lost contracts, she lost rights to projects she was already involved in, are you on methamphetamines right now?

Because you type a lot and totally discount anything anyone else is saying, when they are, in fact, on topic. And it’s only your own repetition which is dull
Even JK Rowling herself says she hasn’t been cancelled. She states the term used by some feminist groups is incorrect.

Also in an interview in December she said:

'The only time I've ever made reference to being cancelled, my book sales went up.

'Why am I even laughing? I can't believe I'm saying these words. But you have to mock them. I do not consider myself cancelled.'
 
Totally incorrect, it is absolutely relevant to this thread, no matter how many times you repeat that it is not. She was cancelled, she was blacklisted, she lost contracts, she lost rights to projects she was already involved in, are you on methamphetamines right now?

Because you type a lot and totally discount anything anyone else is saying, when they are, in fact, on topic. And it’s only your own repetition which is dull
Emma Kelly who writes articles for newspapers on the right of centre summed up this concept of cancel culture continually claimed by people.

But that’s not what these artists are talking about when they complain about cancel culture. Like a massive, swelling tumour, the phrase has grown out of control to encompass all criticism of any person’s opinions and behaviour, even if that behaviour involves racism, transphobia or even federal crimes.

Lewis actor Laurence Fox bemoaned: ‘I have come to the conclusion that I may never get an acting job again without expressing “correct” opinions’, (incidentally written in a national magazine) after claiming that being called a white privileged man was racist, that Meghan Markle wasn’t the target of racism and slammed women who wore ‘erotic’ dresses during the #MeToo movement. “


A baffling article from The Times listed R Kelly as having been cancelled, when he was charged with 18 federal counts including kidnapping, child sexual exploitation and 10 charges of aggravated criminal sexual abuse, and that Roseanne Barr was ‘cancelled’ when her show was literally cancelled for a tweet in which she compared a black woman to an ape.

And there are countless headlines saying that JK Rowling has been ‘cancelled’ because she argued that trans people erase the concept of sex and same-sex attraction, and claimed that gender-affirming medical care for trans people is ‘a new form of conversion therapy’.”


Sure, these views have seen Harry Potter fans, including myself, disown their former idol, refuse to buy any more Potter merch, and two major fansites decide not to cover any of Rowling’s non-Potter activities from now on. But she’s hardly being censored. Rowling is still raking in millions a year from her books and royalties from movies, theme parks and merchandise, is still having her new work published, and can still write what she wants for her 14.3 million Twitter followers.

I wouldn’t call that being erased from the face of the planet. Similarly, since Laurence Fox has rebranded himself as the anti-woke warrior, I’ve seen his name on more articles and heard his name on more radio shows than ever before.

What is actually happening is not that these celebs are being cancelled, it’s that they are being criticised. Ten years ago, a star could make a racist, transphobic, sexist or homophobic comment, simply slink off somewhere for a few months or years, and make a triumphant return. (Case in point, Mel Gibson, who is still somehow being given top billing on movie posters after using the n-word while threatening his ex.)”


Now, they can be criticised on social media in real time. People online can make it known if they don’t want to support somebody’s work when they say that only people born with an ‘F’ on their birth certificate can menstruate, and others can see that criticism and form their own opinions.

It seems, in fact, that while they claim that they want free speech, those most afraid of cancel culture only want their speech to be free.

If you are going to express an opinion to millions of followers on a public forum, you need to expect some backlash – particularly when that opinion is arguing that a group of people don’t deserve the same rights as you.

I don’t believe this backlash should include death threats or abuse against people’s family members – that shouldn’t be on the left or the right or anywhere on social media, and it is abhorrent behaviour. But calling somebody transphobic and refusing to buy their book? Fair game, if you ask me. “
 
You do for the most part write the most inaccurate trite nonsense I have seen on this site for decades.

What has woke to do with all of the above?

You do realise that the very anti hatred legislation you are condemning as being woke and from the left was actually brought in by Douglas Hurd under Thatcher’s right wing government?

You will find many supporters of such anti discrimination and hatred legislation sitting on the Tory side of the house. This legislation is not owned by the left which would be pretty difficult since there hasn’t been a left based government for 13 years.

You have completely switched from what I was saying to talking about crimes. You weren’t talking about crimes, you were suggesting movies, books, albums etc etc are not being released because they are blocked by woke leftists. That is nonsense and unintelligent unfactual unsubstantiated rhetoric that belongs in the gutter and as a person on the right I can proudly say you are talking sh*te.

Back to your original point re freedom to speak rather than criminality. Do you think it is perfectly ok for the likes of Andrew Tate to be free to groom teenage boys online to support the ideas he has where women’s only purpose in life is to serve and pleasure men? Are you happy for that to be included as freedom to speak and freedom of thought? Do you like that his attacks on TERF feminists is gaining ground within schools?

You also then say you are fine with woke opinions as long as people don’t cancel opinions they don’t like. I’d like to remove the term woke for a minute because I find it a meaningless term that is usually used by people who are lazy with the debating skills and find it easy to just put people they don’t agree with into a box when in reality it’s not the case.

So back to Morrissey, who is no platform ing him or cancelling him? I don’t see any such activity. You moaned about the press on this matter but have now said you have no issue with the press expressing opinions. So if that is the case I assume you don’t therefore have a problem if the press have opinions about him and you believe they should be able to express that opinion so I am glad we got to that point eventually.

I’ve already said I care very little for your repeating points re a few terf thinking a 1.5% minority trans section of society presents a threat to their womanhood and whether they are bothered whether some of that 1.5% want to change their legal gender. Good luck to them I say. I don’t see anyone being silenced for their opinions on that from either side.

You can’t blame Morrissey’s old loyal fanbase for walking if they didn’t like what he said. That is their personal choice and their freedom to think and believe too. And it is not just coming from what you call the woke left. His comments on pedophilia have not been seen in good light by people from all over the political spectrum. Not many people on the right or far right would find such commentary as acceptable. There have been as many high profile people stating their dislike of him from both sides of the political spectrum. Has nothing to do with the left and nothing to do with anyone cancelling anyone. It is purely people choosing after years of following him that they no longer want to and that is freedom to think and freedom to choose.

And again if he wants to get his album out there no one is stopping him. He has the money to do it himself. If he so wants his fans to have it then no record industry could stop him.
It really is impossible to engage in a sensible discussion if you are going to suggest that Morrissey has made 'comments on pedophilia'. He didn't say anything about paedophilia - you should become a journalist for The Sun. He simply made some comments about human sexuality being grey, not black and white.
I made that very point in a previous post about 'hate speech' having its origin in the Public Order Act of the Thatcher government during the Miners' Strike. Kind of ironic isn't it that it is now championed by the left.
 
This is JK Rowling's 2020 post, for anyone who's not aware - https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/...ns-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

American sociologist Evan Stark wrote a book called Coercive Control and was in Ireland explaining it a couple of years ago to relevant bodies working on changing the law to include it as a crime, since done. He's been influencing policy like that around the world. During his career, he provided expert court testimony for women who'd killed their partners in cases where they'd been tortured and went over the brink. He also has a trans son yet both are sympathetic in certain respects to JK Rowling's views.

I feel there are quite a few overlapping assertions and phenomena at play here that challenge at least my overall grasp, so looking again at more of Evan Stark's comments around that time might help. See what you think.

He argues for the primacy of sex/gender and race alongside traditional notions of labour as the principal category of valorisation in modern society. He got the impression much of the criticism of JK Rowling was about her purportedly relying more on a victim story rather than taking responsibility for what she said, and her analysing with a brand of feminism which sees women in history as something more than individuals,

Within the Marxist tradition, he says it's the 'structuralists' (like Foucault and Crenshaw) who are anti-subjective and who basically posit that identity/experience is a function of one's 'location' (hence an 'intersection), not an identity or any such.

Race theorists--some of whom like Kimberly he mainly agrees with-- also address the refugee 'invasion' of Europe. The fact that various groups because of their sexual orientation or ethnicity or handicap are claiming privileged positions in politics has, as far as he's concerned, nothing to do with the theory of intersectionality, though they may cite it as their rationale to gain a foothold.

Intersectionality, according to him, means locating yourself politically along the continuum of exploitation and mounting resistance accordingly.'Identity' here is not a particular subjectivity' (e..g 'Afro-Queer') or a sociological category (black, gay, male) but a political stance vis a vis particular rights claims and general alliances. He's hopeful that history-for the next few decades at least --is moving in this direction.

So is he agreeing many people are putting too much energy into the wrong fights? Or not? I like how much thought he's put into all this, which I respect, along with his experience, and his willingness to countenance and debate different views.

He agrees that it has not easy to articulate a unifying vision or theory, in part because recent crises are impacting so many different groups in such devastating ways. But the answer is not to tell people who have suddenly got their voice to stand back because its not their turn to make history. His intersectionality means first, recognizing the basis on which people come together (such as the huge Black Lives Matter protests in 2020). Through these organic voluntary shared actions will come ideas on how the prevailing forms of injustice, inequality and climate disaster can be overcome.

I like his take anyway.: )
One of the most sensible speakers on this subject is Debbie Hayton. We need to hear more from rational voices like hers. It is such a shame that the ideologues have dominated the debate for the last few years. They have put back trans rights by a decade. If you tell people that 2 + 2 = 5, eventually someone will say, nah, this is bull shit. Looks like even Keir Starmer now is stepping back from supporting trans ideology as he knows the general public think it's dangerous.

 
It really is impossible to engage in a sensible discussion if you are going to suggest that Morrissey has made 'comments on pedophilia'. He didn't say anything about paedophilia - you should become a journalist for The Sun. He simply made some comments about human sexuality being grey, not black and white.
I made that very point in a previous post about 'hate speech' having its origin in the Public Order Act of the Thatcher government during the Miners' Strike. Kind of ironic isn't it that it is now championed by the left.
I think you need to maybe do some research.

Let me help you. Straight from the horses mouth:

"I see no difference between eating animals and paedophilia"

and in relation to abuse victims of Kevin Spacey:

“As far as I know, he was in a bedroom with a 14-year-old,” Morrissey added. “Kevin Spacey was 26, boy 14. One wonders where the boy’s parents were. One wonders if the boy did not know what would happen.”

“I do not know about you but in my youth I have never been in situations like this. Never. I was always aware of what could happen,” Morrissey continued. “When you are in somebody’s bedroom, you have to be aware of where that can lead to. That’s why it does not sound very credible to me. It seems to me that Spacey has been attacked unnecessarily.”

"the person referred to as a victim is merely disappointed".

"People know exactly what's going on," he reportedly said when asked about Weinstein. "And they play along. Afterwards, they feel embarrassed or disliked. And then they turn it around and say: 'I was attacked, I was surprised'. But if everything went well, and if it had given them a great career, they would not talk about it.”

Sure, he has never made any comments about pedophilia.
 
One of the most sensible speakers on this subject is Debbie Hayton. We need to hear more from rational voices like hers. It is such a shame that the ideologues have dominated the debate for the last few years. They have put back trans rights by a decade. If you tell people that 2 + 2 = 5, eventually someone will say, nah, this is bull shit. Looks like even Keir Starmer now is stepping back from supporting trans ideology as he knows the general public think it's dangerous.


You are going off topic again.

This isn’t a discussion about the arguments from either side of the transgender debate but a discussion about freedom of speech. The fact you are talking about someone who is writing about her views of transgender rights is a perfect example of freedom to speak isn’t it?

Why do you keep staying that sexual dysphoria, a medically accepted condition is an “ideology”. Even Rowling has spoken in favour of transgender people and has a very close friend who is transgender. I am pretty sure she wouldn’t call it an ideology. Actually don’t answer that. This thread isn’t about the arguments around the transgender rights of 1.5% of the population. It’s about freedom to speak and whether people are free to choose to not spend money on an artist who has views they don’t agree with.
 
Nope. Freedom of speech means you can speak what you want without being prosecuted for it. It doesn't mean that everyone has to agree with you, because having a different opinion is also freedom of speech. Morrissey lives as the most of us on here in the western world where this isn't a real problem at all. Chill out.
This exactly. Freedom of Speech means the government can't punish you for your speech, with very limited exceptions. Also, in the US, there is no such thing as hate speech, for anyone who does not know that, because Brits sometimes think there is.
 
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