Cracking new Morrissey interview - full transcript here

[I Like You]

I like this interview, less maudlin than most of his recent statements and more fun. Would rather he'd left out the Auschwitz comment though.

 

[Iona Mink]

Agreed. He has made the meat industry/Holocaust comparison on at least 3 separate occasions now. It's obvious that he's just doing it for publicity, and I think the fans (and most of the public) have wised up enough by now to realise that such statements aren't worthy of any attention - they make him look not only stupid but desperate as well. The best thing to do is ignore them.

I put the holocaust line in the with the same line of thought as boycotting Canada. Both are PETA campaigns. How much he believes them to be the case, I don't know. But as he has shown a great deal of support for PETA promotions and petitions eg elephants, mulesing. This is another example of promoting PETA's beliefs.

 

[Uncleskinny]

Ultimately I think the strongest argument in favor of veggies is one of land and climate: as the world shrinks, and climate change starts to devastate global harvests, we simply won't have the luxury of wasting so much valuable soil on cows. Meat may then equal murder, murder of humans by starvation. Not to mention the problem of deforestation and what that means to the planet.

Very salient point. What is happening in Brazil where the forests are devastated to grow soy for animal feed is just plain bonkers. For what it's worth, I haven't eaten meat for over 25 years. And the reason? I just never liked meat. A bit of a fraud, but there you go. My favourite food(s) is chick peas, lentils and Vegetarian Indian cuisine.

P.

By the way, it just occurred to me - does that make me a less moral or worse vegetarian because I don't eat meat because I never liked it, as opposed to someone who made a moral judgment about what they eat?

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

and Hitler was vegetarian

 

[Worm]

Ugh.

I want to like PETA, but stuff like that is horrible. I mean, it's insulting to my intelligence. When I see that poster, I think-- well, first I think, "Why'd they have to use the damn "Star Trek" font"? But then I think, "PETA thinks I'm a f***ing idiot". And that makes me far less likely to donate money.

The poster illustrates what I'm talking about. To chickens, humans can't be Nazis. Chickens don't know what the f*** a Nazi is.

Like I said, I completely understand the message the poster is trying to convey. It's just incredibly insulting. They could go in so many other directions.

The point about Morrissey following PETA's lead is well taken, though. I figured that was the case. He's repeating talking points.

 

[Iona Mink]

and Hitler was vegetarian

I'm afraid Robby, that is the incorrect answer.

 

[smiler]

Let's ask a simple logical question. There are a few suggested by the song's lyrics, but let's go with the easy one, the one that springs to mind first. Is killing a cow to eat its flesh a death for no reason?

Hurdle one: not cleared.

Another. Is every death lacking a reason definitely a murder? What's a car accident?

Hurdle two: not cleared.

Again, these are logical objections. I'm objecting to the terms of his argument. Do I know what he means? Sure I do. I get it. My point is that his argument qua argument was a bloody mess. "Meat Is Murder" inspired me to visit the local library, where I discovered three or four solid, intelligent, airtight arguments against the eating of meat and the cultivation of animals for the restaurant industry. So it worked in that sense. But I could never, ever buy into the reasoning he put into the song. I might have a dozen deep moral objections to meat but one of them will never be that it's "murder". Brilliant slogan, though-- it works beautifully on record covers and T-shirts.

I think in this context he meant no good reason, rather than the absence of a reason all together. Even the most barbaric lunatic can offer a misplaced reason for a savage act, that doesn't make the savage act more justified.
Is killing a cow to eat its flesh a death for no reason? - If your reason for killing is because you think you need to eat flesh in order to survive or even to have a balanced healthy diet then that reason is not a good reason (plenty of people who don't eat meat are pefectly fit and healthy.) If someone breaks a window and is asked why they did it and they say "I enjoyed it, I like the feeling of smashing something" than that would be generally perceived as not a "good reason" as opposed to lets say "I lost my key and was try to gain entry to my property"

Hurdle one: cleared.

Is every death lacking a reason definitely a murder? What's a car accident? The car accident analogy isn't helpful - if you look hard enough there is likely to be a reason behind the car accident. Every death will have a reason, a medical condition or an act of somekind, however if the reason is not a good reason that reason is considered in this context to be no reason at all. If the death came about because the life was activiely taken by another and there was no justifiable motive for the act, then that killing becomes questionable. The concept of murder presupposes that the victim is human, in using that word Morrissey is deliberatley being provoctive, it is not the correct use of the word but he is making a point about death killing the value we place on life and our empty reasons for justifying it.

Hurdle two: cleared.

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

I'm afraid Robby, that is the incorrect answer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism

apparently many historians think he was

 

[Iona Mink]

Ugh.

I want to like PETA, but stuff like that is horrible. I mean, it's insulting to my intelligence. When I see that poster, I think-- well, first I think, "Why'd they have to use the damn "Star Trek" font"? But then I think, "PETA thinks I'm a f***ing idiot". And that makes me far less likely to donate money.

The poster illustrates what I'm talking about. To chickens, humans can't be Nazis. Chickens don't know what the f*** a Nazi is.

Like I said, I completely understand the message the poster is trying to convey. It's just incredibly insulting. They could go in so many other directions.

The point about Morrissey following PETA's lead is well taken, though. I figured that was the case. He's repeating talking points.

i have a vague recollection, and I could be making this up, but didn't he hold a PETA sponsored press conference at one point?

 

[Iona Mink]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism

apparently many historians think he was

From your link

"Author Robert Payne, in his biography of Hitler, The Life and Death of Adolph Hitler (Praeger, 1973) theorizes that the image of Hitler as a vegetarian ascetic was deliberately fostered by propaganda minster Joseph Goebbels:

"Hitler's asceticism played an important part in the image he projected over Germany. According to the widely believed legend he neither smoked nor drank, nor did he eat meat or have anything to do with women. Only the first was true. He drank beer and diluted wine frequently, had a special fondness for Bavarian sausages and kept a mistress....His asceticism was a fiction invented by Goebbels to emphasize his total dedication, his self-control, the distance that separated him from other men....In fact, he was remarkably self-indulgent and possessed none of the instincts of the ascetic. His cook, an enormously fat man named Willy Kannenberg, produced exquisite meals and acted as court jester. Although Hitler had no fondness for meat except in the form of sausages and never ate fish, he enjoyed caviar..."

I do believe however, that he only had one ball. I could be wrong though.

 

[Worm]

A bit of a fraud, but there you go.

Well, at various times in my life I've had the image of the soldier from "In The Year of The Pig", blown up about six feet high, gracing a wall in my domicile. I've dined on cow flesh beneath it. I think I've got you beat there.

By the way, it just occurred to me - does that make me a less moral or worse vegetarian because I don't eat meat because I never liked it, as opposed to someone who made a moral judgment about what they eat?

I think this is a fascinating question to ask, Peter. The reason I find it so is that you're asking yourself a question which ought to be beside the point. The pro-vegetarian camp has dominated the debate so thoroughly that even a guy who hasn't touched meat in 25 years wonders if he's a "good" vegetarian. That's the result of making it a moral issue.

Compare it to cigarette smoking. Nobody wonders about the morality of cigarettes. It's poison and we all know it. There is no "good" or "bad" non-smoker. There's just people who refuse to accept the risk, and those who take their chances.

Imagine what would happen if vegetarianism could be separated from all of the crap about morality and "murder". What if eating veggies was a question of health-- which it is? What if eating veggies was a question of saving the environment-- which it is?

Instead we're forced to dwell on the slaughter of animals as a moral question, with the usual holier-than-thou posturing. What would happen if PETA got the word out about the health and environmental benefits of giving up meat, and focused less on rubbing people's noses in outrageous (and often totally baseless) moral quandaries?

 

[smiler]

The statement was cretinous and it's stupid to defend it. I stand by what I said.

P.

*EDIT* I bow to Worm's ability to crystallise thoughts into words far better than I am able to. He's said a lot of what I wanted to say but couldn't articulate.

I bow to Worm's ability to crystallise thoughts into words far better than I am able to. - quite. Not only that he is also able to debate without abuse - why don't you try, you may add something interesting (a Simpsons clip doesn't count). if you don' think you can add anything interesting I suggest you just watch and see if you can learn something.

 

[smiler]

Ugh.

I want to like PETA, but stuff like that is horrible. I mean, it's insulting to my intelligence. When I see that poster, I think-- well, first I think, "Why'd they have to use the damn "Star Trek" font"? But then I think, "PETA thinks I'm a f***ing idiot". And that makes me far less likely to donate money.

The poster illustrates what I'm talking about. To chickens, humans can't be Nazis. Chickens don't know what the f*** a Nazi is.

Like I said, I completely understand the message the poster is trying to convey. It's just incredibly insulting. They could go in so many other directions.

The point about Morrissey following PETA's lead is well taken, though. I figured that was the case. He's repeating talking points.

To argue that Chicken don't understand what a Nazi is to miss the point, a human baby doesn't know what a nazi is.

 

[Uncleskinny]

I bow to Worm's ability to crystallise thoughts into words far better than I am able to. - quite. Not only that he is also able to debate without abuse - why don't you try, you may add something interesting (a Simpsons clip doesn't count). if you don' think you can add anything interesting I suggest you just watch and see if you can learn something.

I stand by what I said, and the way I said it. All of it. By the way, despite me disagreeing with pretty much everything you say on the subject of Morrissey and his statement, I admire your position, and the way you state your case. It obviously means a lot to you. I wonder if a night in a pub with you and I would make an interesting transcript.

P.

 

[Worm]

I think in this context he meant no good reason, rather than the absence of a reason all together.

Right, but you have supplied the answer, not Morrissey. "Meat Is Murder" allegedly spells out an A-B-C case for not eating meat. It doesn't. Not even close.

Even the most barbaric lunatic can offer a misplaced reason for a savage act, that doesn't make the savage act more justified.

True, but eating an animal for its flesh, though unnecessary, is a respectable reason all the same. None of us would be here if humans hadn't eaten animals for millennia. You're making a leap to call it savage and lunatic.

Is every death lacking a reason definitely a murder? What's a car accident? The car accident analogy isn't helpful - if you look hard enough there is likely to be a reason behind the car accident.

You just unraveled the logic behind the song.

If you look hard enough, of course there's a reason behind every accident. What we call an accident is likely just an unexpected outcome of an intelligible chain of events.

However, there's likely to be a reason behind killing a chicken for dinner, too. Reasons abound. Nothing, not even the wholesale, cruel slaughter of chickens, is without reason.

Yes, the point that one doesn't have to eat meat is well taken. I get that and totally agree. Veggies can be enough. My point, from the beginning, has been this: Morrissey does not make this argument in the song. He might be implying it, but as you say above you have to interpret this using context. "Meat Is Murder" does not make an intelligent argument. It has logical holes you can drive a tour bus through. Sure, like you, I can put the pieces together and understand what Morrissey is trying to say. But that's just it, I don't want to have to do that. I'm being hit over the head with a blunt instrument-- I demand better.

 

[Uncleskinny]

Instead we're forced to dwell on the slaughter of animals as a moral question, with the usual holier-than-thou posturing. What would happen if PETA got the word out about the health and environmental benefits of giving up meat, and focused less on rubbing people's noses in outrageous (and often totally baseless) moral quandaries?

All of this x10

P.

 

[Iona Mink]

Imagine what would happen if vegetarianism could be separated from all of the crap about morality and "murder". What if eating veggies was a question of health-- which it is? What if eating veggies was a question of saving the environment-- which it is?

Instead we're forced to dwell on the slaughter of animals as a moral question, with the usual holier-than-thou posturing. What would happen if PETA got the word out about the health and environmental benefits of giving up meat, and focused less on rubbing people's noses in outrageous (and often totally baseless) moral quandaries?

I think it would be much harder to wean people off meat than it is to stop/never start smoking. Meat is an inherent part of culture. Children are fed meat. Meat plays a distinct part of rituals; Christmas, Thanksgiving, fish on Fridays. It also plays a major role in religion ie God gave us animals to feast upon. The word 'feast' alone conjures up images of long tables laden with a variety of roasted meats that kings would eat with their hands and savour.

In the collective conscious the act of smoking doesn't even come close.

 

[Worm]

To argue that Chicken don't understand what a Nazi is to miss the point, a human baby doesn't know what a nazi is.

A human baby can grow up to understand what a Nazi is. A chicken can't.

Chickens don't see the world the way we do. There's no equivalence. We shouldn't be asked to pretend there is.

Don't you think there are 87 other ways for a graphic designer to communicate the horror of modern industrial chicken farming without resorting to a parallel with Auschwitz?

Let me put the question another way. Even if you really, seriously believed that KFC and Auschwitz were the same, wouldn't you realize that your target audience-- the millions of people who are basically decent, and might be persuaded to give up eating meat-- might find such a poster highly offensive and instantly turn against you? Shouldn't tactics be considered? Shock value I understand. Pissing people off is something else.

 

[smiler]

I stand by what I said, and the way I said it. All of it. By the way, despite me disagreeing with pretty much everything you say on the subject of Morrissey and his statement, I admire your position, and the way you state your case. It obviously means a lot to you. I wonder if a night in a pub with you and I would make an interesting transcript.

P.

possibly i like a good pint and a row but I am not sure why you would want to spend time with someone who is "utterly stupid" and who defends "cretinous statements".

 

[Worm]

I think it would be much harder to wean people off meat than it is to stop/never start smoking. Meat is an inherent part of culture. Children are fed meat. Meat plays a distinct part of rituals; Christmas, Thanksgiving, fish on Fridays. It also plays a major role in religion ie God gave us animals to feast upon. The word 'feast' alone conjures up images of long tables laden with a variety of roasted meats that kings would eat with their hands and savour.

In the collective conscious the act of smoking doesn't even come close.

Well, I see what you're saying, and I think you're basically correct. I think you're underestimating the pervasiveness of advertising. Smoking was a huge part of popular culture and you could argue that it became a ritual very much like Christmas or Thanksgiving. I get what you're saying, though.

Still, that doesn't mean that meat-eating can't be discussed in terms of science and rationality, rather than morality. Linking McDonald's with the clearing of rainforests, diseases, and obesity would be much more effective than calling one's Big Mac an act of murder.