Vauxhall and I considered Morrissey's best solo effort -- Less humour one reason?

So...as per the original post, we all (?) agree that there is no album with less humour than Vauxhall, yes? That doesn't automatically mean it's Morrissey's most "miserable" record, but perhaps his most serious (which as one poster astutely pointed out may be the reason it gets more praise). The examples of humour given (from Why Don't You Find..., The More..., The Lazy Sunbathers) do elicit smiles but more than that they're part of the album's poetic feel of resignation. Other records like Arsenal, with the likes of Fatty next to Seasick, have pretty obtuse juxtapositions.

the_smiths -- thanks for detailing how Vauxhall ended up being that far down your list of favourites. Although I've never criticised another user's Morrissey/Smiths preferences in my 12 years on here, I was tempted to say "You're stone crazy for not at least putting it in your top 3!"
 
well, here's the deal, I just looked on my itunes for my ratings of a bunch of Morrissey's albums :straightface:
I rate 6 songs on Viva Hate @ 5
I rate 6 songs on Kill Uncle @ 5
I rate 6 songs on Your Arsenal @ 5
I rate 6 songs on Vauxhall and I @ 5

I rate 5 songs on Southpaw Grammar (Legacy Edition) @ 5
I rate 6 songs on Maladjusted (Remaster) @ 5
I rate 8 songs on You Are the Quarry [Deluxe Edition] @ 5

So really, I love them all til ROTT, and ROTT was gr8 live :thumb:
 
So...as per the original post, we all (?) agree that there is no album with less humour than Vauxhall, yes?

What, how do you reach that conclusion? I get the exact opposite sense from reading this thread.

That doesn't automatically mean it's Morrissey's most "miserable" record, but perhaps his most serious (which as one poster astutely pointed out may be the reason it gets more praise). The examples of humour given (from Why Don't You Find..., The More..., The Lazy Sunbathers) do elicit smiles but more than that they're part of the album's poetic feel of resignation.

I think I would put that on quite different terms. Musically speaking, I agree the record has a somewhat sombre character. But lyrically? First of all, humour (and least of all in Morrissey) is not the antithesis of a seriousness that is again a mark of quality. Morrissey's humour is a part of his seriousness, that's the whole point. In that sense, he is every bit as "serious" on Kill Uncle as he is on Vauxhall. If anyone likes Vauxhall better because they think the lyrics are more straightforwardly confessional and heart-wrenching without confusing things with humour, then I think they have missed very important things about both Vauxhall and Morrissey's work in general. And again, humour runs like red thread through Vauxhall. Lifeguard, to take one example, is one of the most obviously funny lyrics he's ever written, every bit as much so as Girlfriend in a coma. Even "The more you ignore me..." has a tongue-in-cheek element that is hard to miss, and these things are not merely a question of style or entertainment - they are an integral part of the lyric's essential meaning. They would not and could not say what they say without it.

cheers
 
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It's my all time favorite Mozzer disc......brilliant from top to bottom. Then again, I also dig Maladjusted too, and so many here dislike it.
 
It's my all time favorite Mozzer disc......brilliant from top to bottom. Then again, I also dig Maladjusted too, and so many here dislike it.

Maladjusted is no 2 on my solo-list. After V&I. It's a brilliant and poignant record.
 
V&I -- Morrissey's finest album. Those who don't get it and prefer his later efforts are either young, foolish or happy.

I'm not particularly young or happy. I must be foolish.

I do love other records from that period that others don't seem to like: Southpaw, Arsenal and Maladjusted.


Radiohead certaqinly thought so, during recording The Bends they listened to it constantly and said the mood of the record was a major influence on them in the studio.

Can someone explain to me why Radiohead are so beloved and considered so revolutionarily different? I just don't see it. Creep was an OK song, but fairly derivative of Nirvana, which was derivative of Pixies.
 
You mean after reading the thread you come away thinking Vauxhall is the most humorous album of Morrissey's discography??

Again, I'm not saying V&I is without humour (and explained how it blends with the albums poetic feel) but I'm still waiting for someone to name an album that's more "serious," with less puns, bawdiness, funny non-sequiturs -- any kind of humour that reviewers or even threads on here have pointed out (has Vauxhall humour ever been mentioned on moz-solo, kewpie?)

Regarding Lifeguard, I always felt it was a tale of an attention-starved little girl who's (ironically) ignored in her dying moments by the person who's supposed to be the most vigilant. There is a ghastlycrumb-esque feel to it, but funniest lyrics he's ever written? Can't agree with that by a long shot.


What, how do you reach that conclusion? I get the exact opposite sense from reading this thread.



I think I would put that on quite different terms. Musically speaking, I agree the record has a somewhat sombre character. But lyrically? First of all, humour (and least of all in Morrissey) is not the antithesis of a seriousness that is again a mark of quality. Morrissey's humour is a part of his seriousness, that's the whole point. In that sense, he is every bit as "serious" on Kill Uncle as he is on Vauxhall. If anyone likes Vauxhall better because they think the lyrics are more straightforwardly confessional and heart-wrenching without confusing things with humour, then I think they have missed very important things about both Vauxhall and Morrissey's work in general. And again, humour runs like red thread through Vauxhall. Lifeguard, to take one example, is one of the most obviously funny lyrics he's ever written, every bit as much so as Girlfriend in a coma. Even "The more you ignore me..." has a tongue-in-cheek element that is hard to miss, and these things are not merely a question of style or entertainment - they are an integral part of the lyric's essential meaning. They would not and could not say what they say without it.

cheers
 
Vauxhall and I is a beautiful album. It does have its humorous moments, but for the most part, if you take to account what was going on with Morrissey at the time and if you believe the theory that this album was meant to be his last, the album has a somber undertone.

I always interpreted the album as Morrissey's aural journal of his experiences with depression. There is something about the way he drifts off into this imaginary world of characters and film on the album I think his typical of people suffering with depression. It's a form of escape.

Maybe that's why the song "Speedway" sounds so jubiliant and hopeful at the end. He likes to keep himself guessing to what he will do next.
 
You mean after reading the thread you come away thinking Vauxhall is the most humorous album of Morrissey's discography??

No, I come away from the thread thinking that most people who expressed an opinion on the subject felt that less humour was not particularly a trait of Vauxhall, and hence that they disagreed with your assertion in the original post.

Again, I'm not saying V&I is without humour (and explained how it blends with the albums poetic feel)

Well, you offered one impression of how it blends with the feel of the album as you experience it.

but I'm still waiting for someone to name an album that's more "serious," with less puns, bawdiness, funny non-sequiturs -- any kind of humour that reviewers or even threads on here have pointed out (has Vauxhall humour ever been mentioned on moz-solo, kewpie?)

If not, it represents an astounding oversight. And again - even it should contain fewer puns etc., it would still be rather primitive to regard it as "more serious" simply because of that. Once more, that would be to miss the function of humour in Morrissey's lyrics.

Regarding Lifeguard, I always felt it was a tale of an attention-starved little girl who's (ironically) ignored in her dying moments by the person who's supposed to be the most vigilant.

Er, what? Then how would you account for lines like "Hooray/somebody died"? And why does the I-person of the lyric spend the whole song exhorting the sleeping lifeguard to ignore the drowning girl, while slagging her off and offering all sympathy to the poor exhausted fellow who's had such a busy day? There's not a single word in the lyric that suggests any sort of sympathy for the drowning girl - on the contrary, she is bad-mouthed throughout.

I always interpreted the album as Morrissey's aural journal of his experiences with depression.

You could say the same for virtually all of Morrissey's work though.

cheers
 
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If you're going to quote me, quote fully. A string of rebuttals to fragments recalls Usenet groups circa the mid 90s.

Since I can't get a straight answer about which Morrissey albums contain more humour than others, I've started a poll. I'll come back after a decent amount of results are in.

EDIT: Do know that I appreciate articulate debate about Morrissey's work. That's what this forum is for.



No, I come away from the thread thinking that most people who expressed an opinion on the subject felt that less humour was not particularly a trait of Vauxhall, and hence that they disagreed with your assertion in the original post.



Well, you offered one impression of how it blends with the feel of the album as you experience it.



If not, it represents an astounding oversight. And again - even it should contain fewer puns etc., it would still be rather primitive to regard it as "more serious" simply because of that. Once more, that would be to miss the function of humour in Morrissey's lyrics.



Er, what? Then how would you account for lines like "Hooray/somebody died"? And why does the I-person of the lyric spend the whole song exhorting the sleeping lifeguard to ignore the drowning girl, while slagging her off and offering all sympathy to the poor exhausted fellow who's had such a busy day? There's not a single word in the lyric that suggests any sort of sympathy for the drowning girl - on the contrary, she is bad-mouthed throughout.



You could say the same for virtually all of Morrissey's work though.

cheers
 
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If you're going to quote me, quote fully. A string of rebuttals to fragments recalls Usenet groups circa the mid 90s.

Like you do above? A whole post quoted at the bottom with comments in no particular order above it is as useful and transparent as a butter motorbike. As a reader I find that exceedingly messy and I will not do it as a writer.

I put my comments under the appropriate parts of your quote in order to make it clear what exactly I am addressing. The things I don't address I have no comment to. I do hope you are not implying that this is somehow to misconstrue your statements?

Since I can't get a straight answer about which Morrissey albums contain more humour than others, I've started a poll. I'll come back after a decent amount of results are in.

No offense, but how is that supposed to help? As if the question made sense - what are you going to do, count the number of jokes? Or as if it was important. One thing is to discuss if one record is like the others or not in this regard, another to try to identify the record which has the mosthumour. Or as if it matters, with regard to anything.

EDIT: Do know that I appreciate articulate debate about Morrissey's work. That's what this forum is for.

So do I. So, we could for instance discuss the whole notion of "seriousness" that you are proposing as an explanation for Vauxhall's popularity? Or the rather obvious problems in your reading of Lifeguard? Neither of whom you have so far had much to say about?

cheers
 
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Like you do above? A whole post quoted at the bottom with comments in no particular order above it is as useful and transparent as a butter motorbike.

On a hot day, a butter motorbike would become at least semi-transparent pretty quickly. But would be of even less use. :)
 
No you didn't misconstrue but by cherry picking you omitted my mention of Gashlycrumbs (admittedly misspelled as "Ghastly") which is the type of blackly humorous imagery I think the song does evoke. Saying "Hooray" when someone you (in this case the song's narrator) dislike dies will be seen as funny by some, not by others. I think Morrissey was doing his own, darker take on his beloved Redondo Beach.

I don't see why a poll on which is Morrissey's most humorous record on a Morrissey forum is "hilarious". I agree that it's hard to quantify art but people compare the amount of humour, and many other elements, in music, art and books all the time, yes?

I agree with your point that it's not a binary argument of less humour=more serious -- I think Vauxhall is less humorous & more serious / somber / elegiac / reflective. As another poster mentioned it was regarded as his swan song at the time, even by Morrissey himself for a short period. My impression is that lyrically and thematically he was in a creative space quite removed from the puns, bawdy humour (nothing like "explosive kegs" to debate over), and arch wit found on other records so there's simply less of it (I do like the example from Why Don't You Find Out...).


And a whole post quoted at the bottom with comments in no particular order above it is as useful and transparent as a butter motorbike. I put my comments under the appropriate parts of your quote in order to make it clear what exactly I am addressing. The things I don't address I have no comment to. I do hope you are not implying that this is somehow to misconstrue your statements?



Hilarious. As if the question made sense - what are you going to do, count the number of jokes? Or as if it was important. One thing is to discuss if one record is like the others or not in this regard, another to try to identify the record which has the most humour. Or as if it matters, with regard to anything.

EDIT: Do know that I appreciate articulate debate about Morrissey's work. That's what this forum is for.

So do I. So, we could for instance discuss the whole notion of "seriousness" that you are proposing as an explanation for Vauxhall's popularity? Or the rather obvious problems in your reading of Lifeguard? Neither of whom you have so far had much to say about?

cheers[/QUOTE]
 
No you didn't misconstrue but by cherry picking you omitted my mention of Gashlycrumbs (admittedly misspelled as "Ghastly") which is the type of blackly humorous imagery I think the song does evoke.

I don't actually know what "gashlycrumbs" is. Could you enlighten me?

Saying "Hooray" when someone you (in this case the song's narrator) dislike dies will be seen as funny by some, not by others. I think Morrissey was doing his own, darker take on his beloved Redondo Beach.

It isn't funny, when seen in isolation. What makes the song funny is that unless you want to understand it as a serious and straightforward expression of murderous hatred, it only makes sense as a completely over-the-top expression of the extremity of sentiment that can result from strong drives like desire or jealousy. As such, it's not unlike The Boy Racer or It's not your birthday.

While it is of course not the case that only one interpretation is correct, I don't see how you can possible escape from the fact that the reading you offer of it is fundamentally contradicted by the lyrics themselves. The girl is not depicted as "attention-starved", but as attention-addicted - Always looking for attention/always needs to be mentioned/who does she think she should be?. Her demise is greeted with a jubilation that is so unreserved and so excessive that it rules out any notion of implicit sympathy, and is in itself comical - The sky went mad with stars/as an outstretched arm slowly disappears/Hooray.... Any remaining doubt on that point is squashed by the denial even of any basic empathy with her plight, as if her drowning was the natural consequence of a character flaw:It was only a test/but she swam too far against the tide/she deserves all she gets.

Finally, the focal point of the lyric is not the girl but the lifeguard, to whom it seems to be directly addressed, often in the form of an intimate whisper that seemingly attempts to convince him not to bother with her. The extreme juxtaposition of his predicament (had a busy day) over hers (drowning) is another overtly comical piece of hyperbole that also squarely places the emphasis of the song on the I-person's obsession with the lifeguard and the resulting treatment of the girl as no more than an unwelcome nuisance.

All of which again makes it an excellent example of the futility of making any basic distinction between "funny" and "serious", because this highly humourous lyric makes a number of extremely serious points. Above all, it slyly transmits the utter selfishness of an obsessive desire that will brook no obstacle and no competition, told from the inside rather than as an outward observation.


I don't see why a poll on which is Morrissey's most humorous record on a Morrissey forum is "hilarious". I agree that it's hard to quantify art but people compare the amount of humour, and many other elements, in music, art and books all the time, yes?

Well, apart from anything else, how is a poll about which record is most humourous supposed to tell anyone anything about whether or not Vauxhall is the least humourous? Beyond that, how exactly is "humour" defined? And again - now for the third time - how is it possible to make a basic distinction between "humorous" and "serious" in lyrics which usually employ humour as a part of the process of making very serious points?

I agree with your point that it's not a binary argument of less humour=more serious -- I think Vauxhall is less humorous & more serious / somber / elegiac / reflective.

With respect, that seems to be insufficient, because it doesn't account for the way in which humour is used as a means to make serious points (which basically contradicts any elementary distinction between "humourous" and "serious").

Also that makes it rather difficult to get just what you're aiming for, because you have throughout treated the issue as if less humour meant more seiousness. If it doesn't, then what exactly is the question you're asking? If Vauxhall is liked because it has (in your opinion) less humour? Or if it is liked because it is more serious? If its greater seriousness doesn't consist in there being less humour, then what does it consist in? And why then are we discussing the degree of humourousness at all?

As another poster mentioned it was regarded as his swan song at the time, even by Morrissey himself for a short period. My impression is that lyrically and thematically he was in a creative space quite removed from the puns, bawdy humour (nothing like "explosive kegs" to debate over), and arch wit found on other records so there's simply less of it (I do like the example from Why Don't You Find Out...).

Well, this is where we simply disagree. I think puns, bawdy humour and arch wit are markedly present on Vauxhall, as it is on every other album he's made. Don't you think it may be the case that you're simply approaching the record in a way that doesn't really allow you to see them like that? Of course, you can approach it in whatever way you like, we all do. But when we get to the point where we discuss in a public forum whether there is less humour on the record, then things are on a different footing.

cheers
 
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This is getting a bit long winded for my tastes, but the reason I chose a poll asking what the most humorous record was because I already knew what the majority (or #2 if I was hedging bets) would be if I asked what the least humorous was. I genuinely wanted to know what people felt was at the other end of the spectrum and have users post their favourite bits.

Your interpretation of Lifeguard was very interesting. I can see it being God himself whispering (certainly a vocal style Morrissey hasn't used before or since). In any case I think you're being contrarian by saying it's one of the "most obviously funny lyrics he's ever written" -- find me any reviews or forum postings going back to the record's release that take that position. If it's only you that thinks that way, perhaps your stance is more extreme than mine Gashlycrumbs (doesn't do justice to the b&w illustrations).

You're right that Vauxhall uses humour to make serious points, but I say less so than other solo albums (much less than the ones ahead in the poll). Whether that's why critics and fans -- unconsciously or not -- see it as a more mature or poetic work I don't know. That's why the original post was a question, not a declaration.


I don't actually know what "gashlycrumbs" is. Could you enlighten me?



It isn't funny, when seen in isolation. What makes the song funny is that unless you want to understand it as a serious and straightforward expression of murderous hatred, it only makes sense as a completely over-the-top expression of the extremity of sentiment that can result from strong drives like desire or jealousy. As such, it's not unlike The Boy Racer or It's not your birthday.

While it is of course not the case that only one interpretation is correct, I don't see how you can possible escape from the fact that the reading you offer of it is fundamentally contradicted by the lyrics themselves. The girl is not depicted as "attention-starved", but as attention-addicted - Always looking for attention/always needs to be mentioned/who does she think she should be?. Her demise is greeted with a jubilation that is so unreserved and so excessive that it rules out any notion of implicit sympathy, and is in itself comical - The sky went mad with stars/as an outstretched arm slowly disappears/Hooray.... Any remaining doubt on that point is squashed by the denial even of any basic empathy with her plight, as if her drowning was the natural consequence of a character flaw:It was only a test/but she swam too far against the tide/she deserves all she gets.

Finally, the focal point of the lyric is not the girl but the lifeguard, to whom it seems to be directly addressed, often in the form of an intimate whisper that seemingly attempts to convince him not to bother with her. The extreme juxtaposition of his predicament (had a busy day) over hers (drowning) is another overtly comical piece of hyperbole that also squarely places the emphasis of the song on the I-person's obsession with the lifeguard and the resulting treatment of the girl as no more than an unwelcome nuisance.

All of which again makes it an excellent example of the futility of making any basic distinction between "funny" and "serious", because this highly humourous lyric makes a number of extremely serious points. Above all, it slyly transmits the utter selfishness of an obsessive desire that will brook no obstacle and no competition, told from the inside rather than as an outward observation.




Well, apart from anything else, how is a poll about which record is most humourous supposed to tell anyone anything about whether or not Vauxhall is the least humourous? Beyond that, how exactly is "humour" defined? And again - now for the third time - how is it possible to make a basic distinction between "humorous" and "serious" in lyrics which usually employ humour as a part of the process of making very serious points?



With respect, that seems to be insufficient, because it doesn't account for the way in which humour is used as a means to make serious points (which basically contradicts any elementary distinction between "humourous" and "serious").

Also that makes it rather difficult to get just what you're aiming for, because you have throughout treated the issue as if less humour meant more seiousness. If it doesn't, then what exactly is the question you're asking? If Vauxhall is liked because it has (in your opinion) less humour? Or if it is liked because it is more serious? If its greater seriousness doesn't consist in there being less humour, then what does it consist in? And why then are we discussing the degree of humourousness at all?



Well, this is where we simply disagree. I think puns, bawdy humour and arch wit are markedly present on Vauxhall, as it is on every other album he's made. Don't you think it may be the case that you're simply approaching the record in a way that doesn't really allow you to see them like that? Of course, you can approach it in whatever way you like, we all do. But when we get to the point where we discuss in a public forum whether there is less humour on the record, then things are on a different footing.

cheers
 
This is getting a bit long winded for my tastes

In that case I'll keep it short and simple.

Your interpretation of Lifeguard was very interesting. I can see it being God himself whispering (certainly a vocal style Morrissey hasn't used before or since).

Well, that would be a strange God indeed.

In any case I think you're being contrarian by saying it's one of the "most obviously funny lyrics he's ever written" -- find me any reviews or forum postings going back to the record's release that take that position. If it's only you that thinks that way, perhaps your stance is more extreme than mine

I don't see how that matters in the least, actually. I am not being contrarian. I might have been somewhat hyperbolic.

You're right that Vauxhall uses humour to make serious points, but I say less so than other solo albums (much less than the ones ahead in the poll).

Clearly you do. But, here's the responses you got to that, besides mine:

Anynymous: I find Vauxhall to have a certain air of humor throughout, although given it tends to be more subtle in this case. For instance, songs such as 'I Am Hated For Loving', 'Why Don't You Find Out For Yourself', and 'Now My Heart Is Full' are likely never going to make anybody laugh out loud, but the lyrics are no doubt humous and could bring about laughter if presented differently.

Gregor Samsa: Like someone said, it is quite humorous. But not in the common Morrissey-way.....But the fact that the music is generally moody and sombre makes one less open to the humorous lines in the lyrics.

Emotional Guide dog: I don't think it's especially lacking in humour.

mozsupportsrovers: The Humour is very subtle, but i still find myself laughing at some of the lyrics, even though they aren't intended to be funny as some of morrisseys more whittier lyrics. (one would have to wonder in that case if the lyrics are unintentionally funny or funny by accident?)

Do you think that merits the summation "So...as per the original post, we all (?) agree that there is no album with less humour than Vauxhall, yes?"

Whether that's why critics and fans -- unconsciously or not -- see it as a more mature or poetic work I don't know. That's why the original post was a question, not a declaration

I would suggest that a more promising line of approach is suggested by Gregor Samza: That the humour in Vauxhall's lyrics tends to recede from view or disappear in the interpretation, because people approach the record in the way you have described, as a sombre swansong - and so are not as disposed to notice it. If true it is debatable whether this is a reason for its popularity or not. I hope it isn't, because it would imply that enjoyment of Morrissey's work depends on oversimplifying it.

cheers
 
Can someone explain to me why Radiohead are so beloved and considered so revolutionarily different? I just don't see it. Creep was an OK song, but fairly derivative of Nirvana, which was derivative of Pixies.

Creep, to me, is their albatross (so to speak) I can't see how Kid A or In Rainbows or well anything really since their early days is derivative of The Pixies apart from some of the quiet loud, quiet loud songs.

As an established band they've tried to push their sound forward, certainly since the days of Creep and introduced pretty revolutionary ideas for a massive band eg internet releases where the fans choose how much they want to purchase an album for. (Admittedly due to their status they were in an exalted position to do this BUT they still did it) and have not really played the celebrity game in any form. Apart from hypocritical environmental pronouncements.

I honestly think that they are one of the few bands that have reached the status of behemoths who haven't rested on their laurels and tried to stay true to their principles and their art, whilst maintaining their levels of innvoation and quality. Not bad for a bunch of students with a squinty-eyed twat as lead singer. (my opinion when I saw them at a very early gig!)

To get back to the original question Vauxhall is humourous, its probably the lush production and musicianship that renders that humour less noticeable.

Some examples:

The whole of The More You Ignore Me, the beginning of Now My Heart Is Full, the (very) black humour of Speedway, Bily Budd

Lyrically some of these raise a smile. They may not for others.

"loafing oafs in all night chemists"

"Be mad, be rash. Smoke and explode, sell all your clothes"

"Take life at five times your average speed, like I do."

"Always looking for attention, always needs to be mentioned, just who does she think she should be?"

"Children shelled, thats all very well.But would you please keep the noise down low, because you're waking..."

"Anonymous call, poison pen, a brick in the small of the back again."
 
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