London - Wembley (Mar. 14, 2020) post-show fight thread

[Pippistrella]

People werent scared by the establishment. We were scared because there were bombs going off frequently.

There was no phone warning for the Canary Wharf bomb. I was there and no one was evacuated. You just make facts up to try to justify your personal opinion. The reason it didn't succeed as planned was because the lorry containing explosives was supposed to have been left within the main square in Canary Wharf but they couldn't it in safely so it was left up the road near a DLR station but not near any offices. But it was so big that the pub I was in in the Canary Wharf square was devastated from far away. No one warned anyone at Canary Wharf. The pubs were packed because it was around 5pm on a Friday evening.

"IS on the other hand really are a bunch of mad, random, weed smoking drop outs from society"
Then what are you so concerned about.
Would it be scarier to be constantly attacked by the IRA who were "extremely disciplined, clever and had a very skilled engineering department" rather than someone apparently stoned?

The idea that Jihadists are just society drop outs is true in part in relation to the small number of attacks that have occurred in the UK re knifings on bridges etc but do you think a group of weed smoking drop outs could organise one of the world's biggest and best organised terrorist attacks ever which involved entering the US as visitors on holiday , learning to fly and then taking control and flying airliners into their targets? But your Islamophobia would prefer to not see them as possibly being intelligent and well organised and just would like to portray them as drop outs who smoke weed. 7/7 was also a very clever and well organised attack. But this is unusual in the UK. Most attacks you are right have been badly planned and executed. A well organised engineered IRA army was much scarier.

Just to tell you my opinion on something. 9/11 wasn't instigated by Islamists (though it was carried out by them after intense training). It was a CIA/Mossad job which was imperative to then create a reason for invading all the Middle East countries that followed (but ultimately created a mess).

The job was way too sophisticated for a bunch of ******.

 

[Deleted member 29417]

This nutcase keeps demanding evidence. It's like conversing with a faulty bot.

We have a higher standard of fight. ?

 

[Anonymous]

Ah, once he got out. Once you get out does it mean all is forgiven?

The man has been re-cast as a kindly Spice Girls-cuddling uncle who campaigned for peace when in actuality he planted bombs that blew people to bits.

It was interesting what he said when questioned about the Good Friday Agreement and the IRA's Decommissioning: "Never give up your weapons until you get what you want."

Dear god. Here we go again.

Can you please post evidence that shows that Mandela planted bombs that "blew people to bits"?

He was at the time in the MK who had a program of sabotage of things like post offices and electricity pylons and other targets that were designed to cause disruption to the apartheid government.

These attacks were gone through in depth in Mandela's trial and it was established that the objective by the MK was that it was to cause embarrassment and disruption but that they were carefully planned to avoid people. There was however one attack on an empty building where a passer by died but no evidence was found that could prove Mandela had any involvement with that attack.

If it strange that people who try to portray Mandela as a bomb murderer have all of this factual evidence but the court in South Africa couldn't find any such evidence.

They tried Mandela with two offences of Sabotage and one Conspiracy to commit sabotage. That is it.

If they had had evidence of murder then they would have charged him with murder and he would have been hanged. They tried to get evidence to prove that he was responsible for the passer by dying so that they could charge him with Manslaughter but they couldnt,

It has been proven since that all attacks that cause deaths which were between 1960 - 1991 were organised and approved by Oliver Tambo, the President of the ANC and had nothing to do with Mandela.

Unless you have the factual evidence that the courts couldn't find of course?

 

[Anonymous]

I'll address only one of your points as there's clearly so much nonsense here. We basically disagree on everything and the discussion is going nowhere as you keep demanding proof of even the most basic facts.

It seems to me that you do a lot of googling and regurgitating of info, yet have no ability to see the overall picture or comprehension of the real nature of things.

Are you denying that the IRA's primary objective was gaining back their six counties? I mean obviously If the six counties were handed back they would have stopped the bombing campaign. Do we agree on that?

The IRA ultimately lost the war which is why they gave up their weapons. I know it was all dressed up as if they didn't, but in reality they did. So when David Cameron once said "We defeated the IRA" he got into a little friction for that but he was right. Nelson Mandela (who was a terrorist bomber or freedom fighter depending on your opinion) also said that you shouldn't give up your weapons until you get what you want. The IRA did not get what they wanted, yet gave up their weapons.

Yes of course the IRA wanted to get UK presence out of Ireland but to say that would have ever happened and the bombing would stop is a hypothetical assumption. The UK were never going to leave Ireland. The bombing stopped after a long peace process with people like Clinton and Blair and involved the release of prisoners and political bargaining. They didn't give up weapons because they lost, They gave up weapons because of the negotiations but it is debatable that is fully resolved because the New IRA are still active and committing attacks.

But this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. It has nothing to do with the details of what happened to the IRA. It is to do with whether it was safer to be in London in the 80s/90s or now so anything else is irrelevant and you are side tracking.

The rest of what I have said is relevant to your points re terrorism by Jihadists but you are refusing to respond to any of it because you can't dispute facts and you have failed to provide any links to what you have stated as factual. You have completely dismissed everything that was relevant to the discussion and moved to some unrelated point about why you think the IRA lost. That isn't relevant. i assume therefore if you are unable to back any of the Jihadist points you say are facts then they are actually just lies and made up stories. I will accept otherwise but without facts I am certainly not going to accept what you say since so much of what you say is just not true.

 

[Pippistrella]

Dear god. Here we go again.

Can you please post evidence that shows that Mandela planted bombs that "blew people to bits"?

He was at the time in the MK who had a program of sabotage of things like post offices and electricity pylons and other targets that were designed to cause disruption to the apartheid government.

These attacks were gone through in depth in Mandela's trial and it was established that the objective by the MK was that it was to cause embarrassment and disruption but that they were carefully planned to avoid people. There was however one attack on an empty building where a passer by died but no evidence was found that could prove Mandela had any involvement with that attack.

If it strange that people who try to portray Mandela as a bomb murderer have all of this factual evidence but the court in South Africa couldn't find any such evidence.

They tried Mandela with two offences of Sabotage and one Conspiracy to commit sabotage. That is it.

If they had had evidence of murder then they would have charged him with murder and he would have been hanged. They tried to get evidence to prove that he was responsible for the passer by dying so that they could charge him with Manslaughter but they couldnt,

It has been proven since that all attacks that cause deaths which were between 1960 - 1991 were organised and approved by Oliver Tambo, the President of the ANC and had nothing to do with Mandela.

Unless you have the factual evidence that the courts couldn't find of course?

They also did Al Capone for not paying tax, does that mean he wasn't a gun toting criminal?

Nelson Mandela was a member of ANCs armed terrorist wing. This terror wing planted no-warning bombs that blew many innocent people to pieces. His freedom fighting was another person's terrorism.

Please at some point in your life stop demanding evidence and... wake up!

 

[Anonymous]

No warning for Canary Wharf? You are deluded. If that bomb went off without evacuation hundreds would have died, thousands would have been seriously injured/maimed, which would never have worked in the IRA's favour.

The British Army called the IRA the most sophisticated terror group in the world. They didn't say that for nothing.

I have explained why there werent hundreds of deaths. Because they couldn't get the lorry where they wanted to. It was detonated about a quarter of a mile away from Canary Wharf main offices in an area which had very little around in terms of people. There were warehouses and a station that wasn't a main station.

I was in one of the main pubs that was used by most newspaper people and bankers most evenings and that Friday evening it was packed. No one was evacuated. If there had been a warning we would have been evacuated as would have all the offices which they werent.

I have said this now 3 times. I was there and was found under sheets of shattered glass and a collapsed column and was hospitalised. Your idea that Canary Wharf was evacuated is complete false.

 

[Pippistrella]

I have explained why there werent hundreds of deaths. Because they couldn't get the lorry where they wanted to. It was detonated about a quarter of a mile away from Canary Wharf main offices in an area which had very little around in terms of people. There were warehouses and a station that wasn't a main station.

I was in one of the main pubs that was used by most newspaper people and bankers most evenings and that Friday evening it was packed. No one was evacuated. If there had been a warning we would have been evacuated as would have all the offices which they werent.

I have said this now 3 times. I was there and was found under sheets of shattered glass and a collapsed column and was hospitalised. Your idea that Canary Wharf was evacuated is complete false.

The two people who died did so because they refused to leave when the police were evacuating the area.

 

[Pippistrella]

Yes of course the IRA wanted to get UK presence out of Ireland but to say that would have ever happened and the bombing would stop is a hypothetical assumption. The UK were never going to leave Ireland. The bombing stopped after a long peace process with people like Clinton and Blair and involved the release of prisoners and political bargaining. They didn't give up weapons because they lost, They gave up weapons because of the negotiations but it is debatable that is fully resolved because the New IRA are still active and committing attacks.

But this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. It has nothing to do with the details of what happened to the IRA. It is to do with whether it was safer to be in London in the 80s/90s or now so anything else is irrelevant and you are side tracking.

The rest of what I have said is relevant to your points re terrorism by Jihadists but you are refusing to respond to any of it because you can't dispute facts and you have failed to provide any links to what you have stated as factual. You have completely dismissed everything that was relevant to the discussion and moved to some unrelated point about why you think the IRA lost. That isn't relevant. i assume therefore if you are unable to back any of the Jihadist points you say are facts then they are actually just lies and made up stories. I will accept otherwise but without facts I am certainly not going to accept what you say since so much of what you say is just not true.

The IRA signed the GFA because they were so saturated with British intelligence that they couldn't move forward and knew it. They had to resort to their South Armagh branch carrying out the English Campaign in the 90s. All those big lorry bombs made the IRA look strong at the time but to resort to this shows in hindsight how compromised they were as the S Armagh branch was the only brigade not full of informers and agents. In other words, it was the IRAs last stand.

There was also another reason. Gerry Adams close faction (he'd been culling and maneuvering a choice group around him for years) secretly wanted to end the campaign for many years before the GFA. Many of the newer books written by ex IRA members admit this - and not happily. Again it's obvious in hindsight. Look at the Loughgall job where the East Tyrone Brigade were taken out by the SAS in '87. Many, many people now believe that this job was compromised by Adams and McGuinness. I believe this also.

They actually took out their own 'hardliners' who wanted an all-out Tet Offensive (they grassed the upcoming job to the SAS) because they wanted to move the whole show into politics. Basically they knew the armed war was lost - even though they had a f***load of new hardware from Libya. Adams' close circle weren't getting any younger and just knew they couldn't win and would all end up in jail.

It wasn't called a Dirty War for nothing. MI5 and other secret agencies were up to all sorts for years. Many now believe McGuinness was an actual British agent. The more time goes on the more these rumours seem like facts.

There was so much conspiracy and intrigue in this war that demands for 'evidence' is useless. The Brit intelligence agencies were using the Loyalists as their proxy soldiers fighting for the British government. Actual evidence of this? Only bits and pieces that form a larger picture.

That's why your constant demands for evidence from google is useless. To get as near to the truth as you can in history you have to form the bits together like a jigsaw to form a big picture.

 

[Anonymous]

This nutcase keeps demanding evidence. It's like conversing with a faulty bot.

I am well aware of this which is why I asked whether you have contacts with terorist cells because he facts are not what you are saying they are.

You said that IS told its terrorists to not go to Europe because of the pandemic.

In fact it was just a general notice published to everyone on Sharia directives about disease. There is no mention of terrorists or fighters etc. It is an Islamic State newsletter regarding the virus to its people/followers in the same way many groups have issued statements.

The full translation of the release can be found here:

Islamic State Advice on Coronavirus Pandemic

The coronavirus pandemic has caught the attention of the world, and the Islamic State has not ignored the issue. In its latest issue of the al-Naba' newsletter, the organization provides a list of "Shari'i directives to deal with epidemics [/diseases]."

www.aymennjawad.org

But baslicaly to summarise it says a lot about god protecting people against disease unless god wishes it and it advises readers to “trust in God and seek refuge in Him from illness”.
Those who are healthy are warned not to “enter the land of the epidemic” and are told “to cover the mouth when yawning or sneezing”.
Washing hands three times is especially advised before “dipping them into vessels”.

Please feel free to read the full translation and feed back if it mentions fighters or terrorists.

Is it any surprise really for them to say something to people. There is a global pandemic

 

[Anonymous]

This nutcase keeps demanding evidence. It's like conversing with a faulty bot.

and your problem with evidence is? Do you expect people to just believe everything you say because you say it?

 

[Anonymous]

Just to tell you my opinion on something. 9/11 wasn't instigated by Islamists (though it was carried out by them after intense training). It was a CIA/Mossad job which was imperative to then create a reason for invading all the Middle East countries that followed (but ultimately created a mess).

The job was way too sophisticated for a bunch of ******.

You do realise by writing this kind of conspiracy shit you make yourself look like one of those weird flat earthers and any credibility you may have thought you had with other people just went out of the window.

 

[Anonymous]

They also did Al Capone for not paying tax, does that mean he wasn't a gun toting criminal?

Nelson Mandela was a member of ANCs armed terrorist wing. This terror wing planted no-warning bombs that blew many innocent people to pieces. His freedom fighting was another person's terrorism.

Please at some point in your life stop demanding evidence and... wake up!

Why should I demand evidence? You are calling someone a murderer when there has never been evidence of such a thing.

I could call you a murderer and that would be as valid unless I could prove it.

Did you ever go to uni or do essays where the very basis or a thesis or view has to always be backed with citations and that is what I ask for otherwise there is no reason to believe what you say.

I already said Mandela was a member of the MK but there were no bombs sanctioned by the MK before Mandela was imprisoned the involve any loss of life except the death of a passer by.

I am willing to be correct but I am not going to take your word for it that there were bombs that killed loads of people prior to 1962 that were sanctioned by the MK. Mandela didn't have the authority to authorise such attacks and he was in prison. They were authorised by Oliver Tambo as has been proven since he was the head of the ANC and from whom the MK took their orders.

I'm sorry but in a world where we show in my work the continued unfactual lies spread by hate groups it is important to establish facts and you never back up your statements with facts or citations.

Saying Mandela blew up loads of people to bits is simply not established or proven and more than I believe you are a murderer.

 

[Pippistrella]

You do realise by writing this kind of conspiracy shit you make yourself look like one of those weird flat earthers and any credibility you may have thought you had with other people just went out of the window.

Yes, of course I'm aware of that. But there is no way I believe the Islamists could carry out a job as sophisticated as 9/11 and then never again.

Almost every other Islamic terror attack is like kids stuff in comparison. I actually believe the Bataclan and Charlie hebdo attacks were dodgy too.

This is the way that game works. We'll never know the full extent of all the Machiavellian stuff the CIA and other agencies like Mossad get up to. Nothing would surprise me. Life is a game of chess to these Kissinger-types.

 

[Anonymous]

The two people who died did so because they refused to leave when the police were evacuating the area.

I was there as were 100s of other people. We were not evacuated and I had colleagues in offices near by and they were in the office when the bomb went off.

This bomb was unexpected. The peace talks were underway but only were able to start provided Sinn Fein were allowed to take part on the talks. The government said yes provided they disarmed. Sinn Fein refused to back that demand and reacted by letting off the Canary Wharf bomb.

Yes 2 people died but hundreds were injured including me and many were left with life changing life long injuries.

But this again isn't relevant.

Back to the point. Did it feel safer to live in London in the 80s/90s rather than now and I still maintain it was far worse then.

Most people in London who currently live there will have never been affected by the Jihadist attacks but it would have been impossible to not have been affected in some way in the 80s/90s by the constant disruption and fear due to that disruption and bombs being thrown into pubs and at stations and bombs in bins on the street such as in West London that had no warning. There was a general fear and feeling of not being safe and I don't feel that at all right now.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, of course I'm aware of that. But there is no way I believe the Islamists could carry out a job as sophisticated as 9/11 and then never again.

Almost every other Islamic terror attack is like kids stuff in comparison. I actually believe the Bataclan and Charlie hebdo attacks were dodgy too.

This is the way that game works. We'll never know the full extent of all the Machiavellian stuff the CIA and other agencies like Mossad get up to. Nothing would surprise me. Life is a game of chess to these Kissinger-types.

If you believe in conspiracies yes but I generally don't because most of them are pie in the sky and illogical.

Airline travel and security has been revolutionised since 9/11 so not surprising there hasn't been a repeat of that style of attack. Also the amount of intelligence and shared intelligence between nations is now organised and much more intrusive. Lots of attacks get foiled. After they found Osama they got access to a significant amount of intelligence and this allowed them to set up monitoring and electronic survelillance on who lines of cells throughout the world and lots of IS's bases for training etc were destroyed in the War on Terror and iS's ability to be able to recruit and plan large operations in that manner were stifled. This moved things to lone wolf type attacks.

 

[Stephen Hofmann]

I have many friends in Hackney and spend a lot of time there and never feel unsafe and I have a friend who likes Hackney so much she just moved there to be near our friends and she is a single white woman and is loving it

She's probably one of these "liberals" like my ex, that normally wound up raped and murdered touring the world because "everyone is so lovely".

 

[Anonymous]

She's probably one of these "liberals" like my ex, that normally wound up raped and murdered touring the world because "everyone is so lovely".

No she isn't but she does stay away from right wing nutters so she is pretty safe and happy.

She certainly doesn't believe everyone is so lovely. You back up that fact but then you aren't happy. Fact, hatred affects the hater more than the target of the hatred so your life and mental state is probably very troubled.

 

[Stephen Hofmann]

I am well aware of this which is why I asked whether you have contacts with terorist cells because he facts are not what you are saying they are.

You said that IS told its terrorists to not go to Europe because of the pandemic.

In fact it was just a general notice published to everyone on Sharia directives about disease. There is no mention of terrorists or fighters etc. It is an Islamic State newsletter regarding the virus to its people/followers in the same way many groups have issued statements.

The full translation of the release can be found here:

Islamic State Advice on Coronavirus Pandemic

The coronavirus pandemic has caught the attention of the world, and the Islamic State has not ignored the issue. In its latest issue of the al-Naba' newsletter, the organization provides a list of "Shari'i directives to deal with epidemics [/diseases]."

www.aymennjawad.org

But baslicaly to summarise it says a lot about god protecting people against disease unless god wishes it and it advises readers to “trust in God and seek refuge in Him from illness”.
Those who are healthy are warned not to “enter the land of the epidemic” and are told “to cover the mouth when yawning or sneezing”.
Washing hands three times is especially advised before “dipping them into vessels”.

Please feel free to read the full translation and feed back if it mentions fighters or terrorists.

Is it any surprise really for them to say something to people. There is a global pandemic

Don't you have shopping to do...........or something?

 

[Stephen Hofmann]

I was there as were 100s of other people. We were not evacuated and I had colleagues in offices near by and they were in the office when the bomb went off.

This bomb was unexpected. The peace talks were underway but only were able to start provided Sinn Fein were allowed to take part on the talks. The government said yes provided they disarmed. Sinn Fein refused to back that demand and reacted by letting off the Canary Wharf bomb.

Yes 2 people died but hundreds were injured including me and many were left with life changing life long injuries.

But this again isn't relevant.

Back to the point. Did it feel safer to live in London in the 80s/90s rather than now and I still maintain it was far worse then.

Most people in London who currently live there will have never been affected by the Jihadist attacks but it would have been impossible to not have been affected in some way in the 80s/90s by the constant disruption and fear due to that disruption and bombs being thrown into pubs and at stations and bombs in bins on the street such as in West London that had no warning. There was a general fear and feeling of not being safe and I don't feel that at all right now.

Rubbish. I used to go to London at night regularly during the late 80's/90's.....spent a few nights roaming around London cuz i missed the last train. Spent the night in Hyde Park once. I never thought I'd be stabbed. Never crossed my mind. Crosses my mind now.

 

[Pippistrella]

If you believe in conspiracies yes but I generally don't because most of them are pie in the sky and illogical.

Airline travel and security has been revolutionised since 9/11 so not surprising there hasn't been a repeat of that style of attack. Also the amount of intelligence and shared intelligence between nations is now organised and much more intrusive. Lots of attacks get foiled. After they found Osama they got access to a significant amount of intelligence and this allowed them to set up monitoring and electronic survelillance on who lines of cells throughout the world and lots of IS's bases for training etc were destroyed in the War on Terror and iS's ability to be able to recruit and plan large operations in that manner were stifled. This moved things to lone wolf type attacks.

If 100% belief in 'official narratives' makes you happy, then so be it.

My questioning and sceptical nature refuses to believe official narratives ever. There's always more to these things. Much more.