Joy Division

[nightandday]

Continuation of the discussion from the Pin-up thread on Off-topic...

About Curtis: I can't believe so many people think of him as an asshole. If you want mystique and weirdoness, yes, but seeing him as an arse? (I'm talking about fans who 'met' him and shared it once on the internet)

Really? I've never met anyone (online or not) who claims to have met him. Most people have know very little about him, but they just say 'Curtis was a c*** and he cheated on his wife and he was a racist / Nazi' It's really, really annoying when they start with the 'Nazi' crap.

Yes, indeed. But is it true?

Well, make up your own mind. Curtis was very interested in German history, particularly the history of the Third Reich. To some people that translates to "He was a Nazi!" In the early days, the band had a lots of problems because of the rumours that they were Nazis, which they always denied. Terry Mason, the band's manager until 1978 when Rob Gretton took over, said that it in the early months of 1978 it seemed that, because of those rumours, they were "the most unpopular band in the city", they couldn't even book a gig, and the organization Rock Against Racism wouldn't even talk to them at that point. It started because people knew (as you'll often hear people say) that their name has some association with Nazism; besides Bernard Sumner used to call himself 'Albrecht', and the sleeve for the EP An Ideal For Living, with the picture of 'Hitler Youth drummer boy', made it worse. Mason explains: "It does seem like a stupid thing to do, to put it in that sleeve. But...in all honesty, we didn't really think about it at the time. In fact, we thought it was arty because the hip film at the time was The Tin Drum. That was something everyone was talking about."

The name "Joy Division" does have a 'Nazi' connection, sort of. It was taken from a novel "The House Of Dolls" by Ka-Tzetnik 135633, an Auschwitz survivor (his pen name means "Concentration Camper", and 135633 was his number). The author's identity is not certain - some people say that his real name was Yehiel De-Nur, others that it is Karol Cetinsky. The book is supposed to be based on the the diary of his sister, who died in Auschwitz. The central character is a 17 year old Jewish girl who is taken into the concentration camp brothel ("Doll House"), where women were sterilised and used as sex slaves by Nazi officers. They were called 'Joy Division' because they had to smile and look happy, otherwise they would be killed. (BTW, although I haven't read that book, I first found out about the fate of those women from another novel -Aleksandar Tisma's "The Use Of Man" ("Upotreba coveka"). )

One of Ian's friends says: "He was interested in the Third Reich, but I don't want people to believe that he was some kind of closet fascist, because he wasn't. That's the sort of thing it invokes in people's minds when you talk about it. The whole secret history aspect of Nazi Germany, which was hidden from school curriculum history, was one of the things that fascinated Ian - discovering things like the poor camp girls who were made to serve like whores for the Nazis. [That] wasn't in school textbooks. It's possible his interest in this subject might have been evoked by The Night Porter, which was a highly controversial film touching remotely on the subject. He had mentioned the film once in conversation, so I believe he might have seen it."

"No Love Lost" also contained a reference to "The House Of Dolls" (the spoken part in the song):

"...Through the wire screen, the eyes of those standing outside looked in at her as into the cage of some rare creature in a zoo.
In the hand of one of the assistants she saw the same instrument which they had that morning inserted deep into her body.
She shuddered instinctively.
No life at all in the house of dolls.
No love lost..."

So, you tell me - does it sound like a neo-Nazi would be inspired by that book? My opinion is - no way in hell would that happen. To my knowledge, Curtis never publically expressed any Nazi beliefs - do you think he did it in his lyrics? Is there any song where he supports Nazi ideology, that expresses anti-Jewish sentiments, a belief in racial supremacy, Ubermensch, need to extermine the 'lower races' or the physically deformed or the mentally retarded etc.? I only see an obsession with the suffering, cruelty and darkness in human life and society...

and I can see what could be references to Third Reich (though not necessarily) in some other songs, too, for instance:

"All dressed in uniforms so fine
They drank and killed to pass the time
Wearing the shame of all their crimes
With measured steps they walked in line

They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line

They carried pictures of their wives
And numbered tags to prove their lies
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line

Full of a glory never seen
They made it through the whole machine
To never question anymore
Hypnotic trance, they never saw
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
They walked in line
Walked in line
Walked in line"

 

[wolve]

Very nice read, thanks for the information, nightandday.

Now, I must say: if they (e.g. public opinion) say something about an artist, it's easy to find clues and prove in lyrics; in most cases things are just made up.(like when they claimed Morrissey to be a rascist, they "found" rascist clues in his songs, yeah as if..) Maybe it's the same with Ian. I can imagine it fascinated him: lots of people envied the dogmatic discipline Nazi's had, not really wanting to be Jew-haters themselves. Like 'Walking in line': he looks at trained soldiers with eyes wide open. When you watch 'Triumph des Willens', you've got to confess how "great" the German army was "trained". (If, by any means, one would think I am pro-fascism, let it be known: I'm not!) And maybe the fact that it wasn't taught at school, aroused the interest/curiousness.

And I agree with you on the book:

So, you tell me - does it sound like something a neo-Nazi would be inspired by that book? My opinion is - no way in hell would that happen.

 

[Worm]

Ian Curtis was certainly not a neo-Nazi. That's the worst, most baseless slander ever hurled at a band or an artist. He was somewhat careless with the Nazi references, as were all the band members (Bernard Sumner screaming "You all forget Rudolph Hess!" just before "At A Later Date" live at The Electric Circus). It's important to remember, though, the "secret history" of the Nazis mentioned above and also punk's use of the swastika, for example, for shock value. Like many of their peers, Joy Division were simply playing with a taboo.

However, in my opinion there is too much of an effort made by the band's supporters to disassociate Joy Division's music from the Nazis. My own interpretation of Curtis's lyrics is that one of his most important themes was dehumanization. On a narrow scale it might have been something like epilepsy, but on a wider scale, something about modern life, and about cities, in particular, was obliterating commonality between human beings. I think Curtis was attuned to the idea that war crimes in WW2 had torn away the veil on what humans are capable of doing to each other, and he wanted to write and make music about this in a way that was fairly tough and clear-minded but unafraid to be ambiguous in its use of inflammatory imagery.

Nazi Germany was thus an obvious source of inspiration, but importantly I think Curtis was far more interested in everyday Germans than the criminals at the top. The horrors of the Nazis could not have happened without the complicity of huge populations who did not see the implications of what Hitler was doing until it was far too late. I believe Curtis understood the error of history recording the Holocaust as a tragic aberration, the result of pure evil, when in reality there was an everyday banality to it; "banality", you'll find, is a word commonly used in relation to the Nazis by present-day historians. In short, Curtis wanted to provoke people into recognizing that they could become executioners as easily as victims. In this I would imagine he was influenced by the novels of J. G. Ballard, whose "Atrocity Exhibition" gave him the name for one of Joy Division's most terrifying songs. Indeed, everything I have been saying can be summed up in a line in that song: "Take my hand and I'll show you what was and will be". For Curtis the conditions in which the Nazis took power were not aberrations. They were repeatable-- an idea especially chilling for many present day Americans.

 

[the more you explore me!]

i always remember music coming from my brothers bedroom. this particular music i remember hearing, years later I found out it was "unknown Pleasures" it was like a repressed memory, i finally found out what that music was.

a few years ago i saw and bought The House Of Dolls from a charity shop and gave it to my brother for his birthday.

i've seen new order a couple of times.

i hope the new film is good, i've seen a couple of photos.

 

[X-Tasy]

The name New Order also had nazi connetations - but agree that personnally none of the band ever agreed with Nazi principles, sang about them or displayed anything.

 

[petshopmode]

I mean.. didnt a lot of bands from the UK at the time of JD and NO's starts kinda follow the weird nazi-ish fashion and imagery then? but didnt mean they were at all supporters of it. seemed to just be a 'fad'. simple as that.

i have never once heard or read of any nazi-like thing from new order or in any of their songs. or anything that could possibly even hint at it.
the only thing would be Bernard's haircut. LOL!!!!!! he's seemed to never outgrow that one. LOL

some other things proving new order as being NON-nazi-supporters:

1. they have a lot of gay friends... and collaborated with many people who are openly gay.
2. they owned the Hacienda which had a huge gay following, and they had a special open gay night.
3. they have a lot of friends and collaborators who are black.
4. barney even said in an interview one time, that one of the things that makes him violent and angry is "Homophobia"... among many other things.
5. some lyrics display a hinting at a very liberal-ish, and in some ways rather very un-political ways.

yeah, they really sound like nazis. (Um, no)


as for joy division...

all i know is that ian curtis had a very strange fascination for nazi germany and hitler. the band's even said so. the fascination can still be there and it not mean he supported it. so, who knows.
i havent read the "touching from a distance" book by his late wife yet, so i cannot really form an opinion on that yet.

was it true that ian had a hitler shrine or something, too?

ian spent a lot of time struggling with mental problems, health problems, and was on all kinds of medications and had a really hard life and i think he just was interested in the darker side of peoples' minds. who knows really.

this is a very interesting topic though.

 

[Ryan]

Love Joy Division.

I was disheartened to read that New Order may be calling it quits sooner than I had imagined (see here), and it seems that Anton Corbijn is causing some hassle with the new Ian Curtis biopic (here). Let's hope nothing too drastic occurs. From what I've seen, Sam Riley portrays Ian fantastically.

To digress, I purchased the "Refractured" box set a couple of weeks ago; that is, a re-packaging of the live Preston and Les Bains Douches recordings, along with a bonus disc of the Paradiso recording. If you get the chance, listen to the live version of "Atrocity Exhibition" from the Paradiso show. Absolutely amazing. Powerful.

"Welcome to the Atrocity Exhibition. [...] Wanna see some more, step inside! WANNA SEE SOME MORE? STEP INSIDE!!"

Given that the lyrics to the album version of the song depict onlookers taking satisfaction out of (presumably) Ian's epilepsy, the sheer rage in his voice in this recording, coupled with the alternate lyrics make it a truly memorable listen. I can't stop playing it.

 

[nightandday]

Love Joy Division.

I was disheartened to read that New Order may be calling it quits sooner than I had imagined (see here), and it seems that Anton Corbijn is causing some hassle with the new Ian Curtis biopic (here).

From that article: "As previously reported, 'Control' is based on the book 'Touching From A Distance' by Ian Curtis' widow Deborah and stars newcomer and stars 10,000 Things frontman Sam Riley."

From what I've heard, the movie will not be based just on Deborah's book, but on her book and the new Curtis biography, "Torn Apart". At least I hope that it's true. I really, really hope it is not based only on Deborah's book, because that would be awful. In that case, people wouldn't really find out much about Ian's music or artistic vision, because Deborah obviously knew jack about that, and would only present a one-sided, shallow and severely biased view of his personality... just as Deborah's book does.

 

[Ryan]

Dec 28, 2006 3:41 PM

Control: Premiere in February 2007

http://neworderonline.com/News/News.aspx?NewsID=1287

According to a german site, the movie about Ian Curtis, Control, directed by world-famous photographer Anton Corbijns will be in Berlin on Feburary 2007 at the Berlinade movie festival, and the movie will be in theatre in April.

Original german text:

The Ian Curtis Movie ist Anton Corbijns jüngstes Projekt und in gewissem Sinn ein Kulminationspunkt seines bisherigen Schaffens. Corbijn, als Photograph der Pop- und Musikszene weltberühmt, dreht nach mehr als 75 Videoclips zur Zeit seinen ersten abendfüllenden und selbstproduzierten Film. Control, der im Februar 2007 bei der Berlinale uraufgeführt wird und ab April in die Kinos kommt, handelt von Ian Curtis (1956-1980), dem Leadsänger, Gitarristen und Songwriter der legendären Rock Band Joy Division. Mit seinen Songs, die von Depression, Gewalt und Entfremdung erzählen, seiner sinister dunklen Stimme und seinen Bühnenauftritten - tänzerischen Einlagen, die den epileptischen Anfällen des tatsächlich Kranken sehr nahekamen - wurde Curtis in den drei Jahren, die Joy Division existierte (1977-1980), zum Helden der Post Punk-Ära. Sein Selbstmord mit 23 Jahren am Tag, bevor die Band zu ihrer ersten Amerika-Tournee aufbrechen sollte, bestätigte noch den Mythos vom jung sterbenden Rockstar. Closer to "Control" ist das Buch zum Film, Anton Corbijns visuelles Tagebuch vor, während und nach den eigentlichen Dreharbeiten. Handschriftliche Notizen, Zeichnungen und jede Menge Photographien, darunter Stills, die er selbst mit einer 35mm-Kamera vom making of des eigenen Films aufnahm, dokumentieren den kreativen Entstehungsprozeß von Corbijns Regiedebut, auf dessen Ergebnis man gespannt sein darf.

 

[punky bunnymen bunnyfan]

As being that I'm an "older" fan of theirs I felt compelled to write a bit on this topic. IMHO, Ian Curtis sang these songs b/c obviously it was deep, surpressed, feelings....

He was suffering the loss of his marriage yet, the beginning of his love w/ Annik.
It was simply a cry for help yet, mixed w/ emotionality of repression.
He was singing about the times, hardships and feelings of his life.
He expressed these feelings too, in reminiscence w/ the happenings of the times around his life.
It's terrible that he couldn't receive the proper treatment for his epilepsy and these emotionalisms.

If I was his friend seriously, I would've done all I could.

I've read a lot of old books on the band and the perspectives seemingly correlate to the issue of this which is sort of what I agree with.

As for him being "Nazi-influenced", I find that to be a wide load of bollocks. That reference for even the title of this band is from the book, House of Dolls. Read the book to find out more on this band's title...Just like it's influence w/ the new title, New Order.

I admire his maturity though, in trying to express these opinions it is just so horrific it had to end the way it did.....

I will ALWAYS love this band and their style, emotionalism.

 

[the more you explore me!]

Dec 28, 2006 3:41 PM

Control: Premiere in February 2007

http://neworderonline.com/News/News.aspx?NewsID=1287

i had that photo of ian as a poster when i was a teen.

 

[Kewpie]

I don't think the version which will be shown at Berlin film festival is the final cut...

 

[spleenhead]

I can't believe people accuse Joy Division of being fascist when it's much more obvious in bands like Queen..

 

[Ryan]

Date: Jan 10, 2007 1:41 AM
Subject A Message From Anton Corbijn!!!
Body: well i am stunned and elated at the same time by the reactions i read on hooky's remarks. it is great to see that all of you are so passionate yourselves about the film. the very misleading headline "New Order have criticised the makers of Joy Division film 'Control' " has brought out the best in you all but please be aware that there is NO argument whatsoever between new order and myself or hooky and me. peter might have been in a bit of a mood when he said what he said and boy, does he know how to make headlines, but please don't be upset with either him or me for no reason. yes, i am in control of CONTROL as any director worth his celluloid should be in charge of his film but i am not telling the band, that i moved to the UK for in 1979, how to write songs. please.
i wouldn't dare. what we are doing is making some incidental music for particular parts of the film and yes, i am in the studio with the new order guys when they are doing this. new order saw a rough cut of the film prior to writing the score and THEY ALL LOVED IT which would be a much better headline ! CONTROL is a beautiful film for anyone who loves hooky, and beyond. the movie meanwhile looks set to come out in september 2007.

ANTON CORBIJN

 

[Worm]

Thanks for posting Anton's message. Sounds cool. But Hooky? A moody guy? Naaaaaaw.

 

[petshopmode]

I can't believe people accuse Joy Division of being fascist when it's much more obvious in bands like Queen..

How were/are Queen fascist?!

 

[Ryan]

Directed by Dutch photographer Anton Corbijn, Control is set to open in UK cinemas in March, 2 years after its American producers Orian Williams and Tom Eckhert first contacted Mojo to discuss their new project. Eckert has spoken about their lengthy effort to get the film off the ground, having optioned the rights to 'Touching from a distance' in the late 90's. ''I don't think there are many really great stories out there.'' said Todd. ''But this is one of them.''

Williams, in particular, felt it crucial to find a director whom both Deborah and the surviving members of Joy Division could trust. Though Anton Corbijn had yet to direct a full feature film, the Dutchman's credentials were impeccable. In 1980 he moved from Holland to Britain specifically to photograph the group, his iconic shots for NME launching a career that would see him in the 80's and beyond become first choice lensman for U2, Depeche Mode and R.E.M.

Indeed it was non other than Bono who told Williams at a party in 2004, ''You've got to get Anton to direct this movie''.

''Initially, (Corbijn) did not want to make a film about a musician", explains Williams. ''But then he realized it wasn't a conventional biopic, it was a love story.'' Once on board the director's first stipulation was that the film should be shot in moody black and white. The result, says Williams has an ''abstract poetic, epic feel, but it's not arty, its not a fever dream. Its traditionally mapped out- Antons a big fan of old English movies, he loves David Lean, Truffuant, Jim Jarmush, (Loach's) Kes.''

Control - part-financed by Depeche Mode's Martin Gore - has, it seems won some important fans. The surviving members of Joy Division saw a preview on November 28th, reporting to Mojo that they ''very much approve of it and will be backing it 100%''. ''Initially the group were disinterested in the film, but at the same time were intrigued and wanted to get involved'' says Williams.''When we first met them backstage at a gig in Liverpool in 2005, Bernard said 'Just have some fun with it.' We did and the finished Movie is amazing.''

Control will be released in spring 2007, for more info go to controlthemovie.com

Thanks to depeche-mode.com for the submission and informations

 

[mike joyce]

new order are ok but joy division are crap

love will tear us apart and transmission are the only good songs