Is it just in the USA?
- Thread starter Well I Wonder
- Start date
D
Dave
Guest
Thanks for providing context. It's lazy of me not to have put that together especially since those old magazine articles are easily available. I was listening to the music then but not following the British music press and even now when I read about Morrissey's problems with journalists at that time it's like it happened in another reality. When I did read articles about him in the American press it seems it was more about his opinions on other bands and his lifestyle.
As far as what to do, I don't see rioting in the streets coming soon. I do think it's time to stop voting pragmatically since the compromise we're making isn"t turning out to have many practical benefits anyway.
D
Dave
Guest
I love Boz and the rest, but I am seriously looking forward to Morrissey's "Vegas" tour, just him crooning away and Mikey at a grand piano.
Worm
Taste the diffidence
Yeah, I followd it pretty closely. I was buying the NME every week in addition to the music. The other bit of context (which I'm sure you remember) is that 1992 was in the middle of the political correctness craze. He picked a bad time for his "flirting with disaster" moment. (Or maybe the right time, depending on how you see it.)
I agree with the retrospective judgment that the NME were doing a p.c. kneecapping job, but I think it was a case of bad music criticism coupled with standard tabloid exaggerations. I mean, I think it was worth having a discussion about Morrissey's views on race and English nationalism-- I myself did a lot of thinking about his opinions when "Bengali In Platforms" was released, let alone "National Front Disco"-- but in the event it was one-sided, not a dialogue, and ultimately very irresponsibly handled by the NME.
I wouldn't advocate a riot to bring change. My revolution would be more peacable. If I had a blank check I would double the salaries of every teacher in the United States and, starting with the kindergarten level, completely overhaul every classroom curriculum from K-12 and enforce ironclad, no-nonsense benchmarks for each and every student. If I could I would establish Jesuit-style secular academies where children were separated from their parents and made to live on the school campus for 9 or 10 months out of the year. The sad cult of children worship would be over, dead, finis.
By the time I'm an old man maybe we'd see some progress toward restoring the original ideals of the Constitution.
I'm not holding my breath. It's going to get worse before it gets better. When a fourth-term George W. Bush holds a press conference on the White House lawn announcing a "Grand Army Of The Republic" made up of clone warriors built by Microsoft and Bechtel, it's time to head for the hills.
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A
Alcoholic Afternoons
Guest
I would go along with that, but first you'd need to do away with the teacher's unions, or none of that would happen. First, get rid of the unions, then fire the lousy teachers, THEN double the salary and hire quality people on an at-will basis that will follow the benchmarks or lose their jobs, then get rid of the state and federal bureaucracy that would interfere with the establishment of proper benchmarks.
Piece of cake, right?
PregnantForTheLastTime
Hideous trait.
The strange part about the teachers' unions is that they are useless to the teachers. Apparently they only interfere. My sister is a teacher and was having problems with her district, but the union told her, "too bad." Once they get their contract, they step back and collect dues and that's it.
Worm, your ideas about education are fairly extreme. At least, the boarding school part. Are you a parent? Doesn't sound like it. As a parent, it is primarily my responsibility to make sure my kids are being educated appropriately. I'm finding myself pleasantly surprised with the public school system in the districts around here. Our district has a large percentage of kids receiving free lunch (that's the current euphemism for poor, I guess) and yet my sons' elementary is quite a good little school.
For the most part, it's not the teachers' fault, it's the parents. Maybe the children whose parents have shown a lack of interest in and respect for their children's education should have them taken away and put in boarding school. Not mine, though. Although god knows there are days when I'd love to just pick them up on the weekends... it's not at all easy. But every bad story about education I've heard has lazy, disrespectful, irresponsible parenting at its root. Sometimes that's at the family level, but often it permeates entire communities who just have no clue what they are supposed to be doing with their children.
Why is it that nearly every person I know who has chosen not to have children, is exactly the kind of person who should be having children because they would actually do a good job?
Worm, your ideas about education are fairly extreme. At least, the boarding school part. Are you a parent? Doesn't sound like it. As a parent, it is primarily my responsibility to make sure my kids are being educated appropriately. I'm finding myself pleasantly surprised with the public school system in the districts around here. Our district has a large percentage of kids receiving free lunch (that's the current euphemism for poor, I guess) and yet my sons' elementary is quite a good little school.
For the most part, it's not the teachers' fault, it's the parents. Maybe the children whose parents have shown a lack of interest in and respect for their children's education should have them taken away and put in boarding school. Not mine, though. Although god knows there are days when I'd love to just pick them up on the weekends... it's not at all easy. But every bad story about education I've heard has lazy, disrespectful, irresponsible parenting at its root. Sometimes that's at the family level, but often it permeates entire communities who just have no clue what they are supposed to be doing with their children.
Why is it that nearly every person I know who has chosen not to have children, is exactly the kind of person who should be having children because they would actually do a good job?
D
Dave
Guest
I'm all for higher teacher salaries. There are all kinds of ways to cut waste in other areas to pay for it. And then, although teachers are not especially driven by money, I do think it would naturally draw more qualified people. And some of them do need to go. Once they get tenure they have it made and some of them are very lazy. Those that teach required basic education classes seem most likely to be lazy.
Just government spending in general is so wasteful. Most of my personal experience is with county workers. Meetings about what color to paint a resource room for example, when it looked perfectly fine. But there was money in the budget for it. This whole concept of next year's budget being based on what you spent this year, and people spending on things they don't need so their budget won't be cut. Really bizarre way to reward those that waste and punish those that can manage a budget.
Sorry for going off topic. That's not America to me though. Another thing that is not America is this total lack of shame and lack of responsibility. People are proud of what they can get away with. Shame had it's place and it's gone now.
Just government spending in general is so wasteful. Most of my personal experience is with county workers. Meetings about what color to paint a resource room for example, when it looked perfectly fine. But there was money in the budget for it. This whole concept of next year's budget being based on what you spent this year, and people spending on things they don't need so their budget won't be cut. Really bizarre way to reward those that waste and punish those that can manage a budget.
Sorry for going off topic. That's not America to me though. Another thing that is not America is this total lack of shame and lack of responsibility. People are proud of what they can get away with. Shame had it's place and it's gone now.
Worm
Taste the diffidence
I'm just building castles in the sky. Talking impossibilities. If and when I sire an heir I'll probably raise him or her roughly the same way everyone else does. Maybe. Anyway I'm all for crackpot theories of education. The zaniness of my solution is commensurate with the deep pessimism I feel about the state of the nation. As for the role of parents, of course I agree with you wholeheartedly-- I mentioned the boarding school only because I think a good education has to begin as early as possible. Beyond a certain age it's too late. The changes I would like to see are on the most fundamental levels of our thinking, so they need to be instilled from infancy. Once the first generation is educated properly, they can tear down the boarding schools and build jungle gyms.
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Worm
Taste the diffidence
Now you sound like an Islamofascist fundamentalist.
Kidding.
You're right-- but how do you put the genie back in the bottle? It's an absurd question, but how do you restore a sense of shame? I don't see any institution in place that can do that right now (or at any rate that can accomplish that in a healthy way).
D
Dave
Guest
I know. There's no way to talk about morals anymore without sounding like a fundamentalist of one stripe or another. Maybe that is the true evil of televangelism. (I like using words like that with you. I suspect it makes you cringe 
)
)
Worm
Taste the diffidence
I know. There's no way to talk about morals anymore without sounding like a fundamentalist of one stripe or another. Maybe that is the true evil of televangelism. (I like using words like that with you. I suspect it makes you cringe
Televangelism! Have they adopted another Cambodian baby yet?
*cough*
Sorry.
Morals-- yes, it's hard to talk about morality, but it's one of those concepts we're going to have to reclaim for ourselves. There is a way to talk about morality and shame and so forth without resorting to religious fundamentalism or priggish platitudes. Fantastic though it sounds, I've heard rumors that one can even have morals and a rollicking sense of humor at the same time. In fact, some have found just such a moral position in Morrissey's music. I'm one of those people. It's out there, it just has to be plucked down from the clouds.
left out
New Member
In the news this week was Tony Blair criticising the media for painting too negative a picture of politics and politicians. Not only criticising the media for what they write about, but also how they interpret it.
But the people have become disillusioned with politicians because they KNOW they have been lied to and dislike being told what they aught to think or do.
Britain is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, along with the US, yet between 20 to 30% of the nation’s children are raised in poverty. People do join the army to get an education. And the quality of education in some schools is shockingly poor. The best teachers have left the profession in droves because they no longer have the authority to discipline effectively, and because the Curriculum is test-results oriented, not flexible enough for children’s different learning styles and needs.
When big corporations are seen to award breathtaking salaries to their top executives, yet get away with fraud and tax evasion on a massive scale, what incentive is there for Joe Bloggs to be entirely honest about his tax returns?
Where state unemployment support, according to a EU report, does not cover even 50% of a persons most basic needs, and where minimum wage is not enforced people become “criminals” by not declaring all their income simply to survive.
It’s not just the USA.
I think the song is crude lyrically, but most political ranting is crude. Stereotypes allow us to think “we” are better than “them”.
I believe it is possible to love your country, with all its flaws and greatness, without being nationalistic, while being able to appreciate what other cultures can offer too.
In a recent interview I heard Morrissey say that he used to think England the best country in the world and wasn’t concerned for the culture of other places. But now he looks back and is embarrassed by the short-sighted attitudes he once had. I’m encouraged by the debate here. People still asking questions and not being satisfied with simplistic assumptions.
The only thing that scares me more than apathy is certainty.
But the people have become disillusioned with politicians because they KNOW they have been lied to and dislike being told what they aught to think or do.
Britain is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, along with the US, yet between 20 to 30% of the nation’s children are raised in poverty. People do join the army to get an education. And the quality of education in some schools is shockingly poor. The best teachers have left the profession in droves because they no longer have the authority to discipline effectively, and because the Curriculum is test-results oriented, not flexible enough for children’s different learning styles and needs.
When big corporations are seen to award breathtaking salaries to their top executives, yet get away with fraud and tax evasion on a massive scale, what incentive is there for Joe Bloggs to be entirely honest about his tax returns?
Where state unemployment support, according to a EU report, does not cover even 50% of a persons most basic needs, and where minimum wage is not enforced people become “criminals” by not declaring all their income simply to survive.
It’s not just the USA.
I think the song is crude lyrically, but most political ranting is crude. Stereotypes allow us to think “we” are better than “them”.
I believe it is possible to love your country, with all its flaws and greatness, without being nationalistic, while being able to appreciate what other cultures can offer too.
In a recent interview I heard Morrissey say that he used to think England the best country in the world and wasn’t concerned for the culture of other places. But now he looks back and is embarrassed by the short-sighted attitudes he once had. I’m encouraged by the debate here. People still asking questions and not being satisfied with simplistic assumptions.
The only thing that scares me more than apathy is certainty.
Busy Clippers
New Member
Yes, this is a good thread. Worm and Dave have gotten me thinking (again). Increasingly, Americans don't have a sense of community, unless you count the electronic one fabricated by the media conglomerates. Personal responsibility, shame, empathy, and morals are all related to the role of an individual with respect to his/her community. The reason these topics smack of religion is that the church is often the last community that a person has left after leaving school. You can't really count the workplace, although it often functions as one, because many of us wouldn't be there unless they were paying us. More and more, people in the US, especially the South, are raised in souless gated communities where they cram in as many culs de sac as possible to maximize selling prices; cul de sac = dead end. These developments sprout up overnight, and before you know it there are kids who think that trees come from flatbed trucks and begin life like this:
Don't get me started on New Urbanism, which has thus far proved to be no more than an opportunity for retailers to have a captive audience. It sucks. Would you pay $450,000 to live above Pottery Barn?
Don't get me started on New Urbanism, which has thus far proved to be no more than an opportunity for retailers to have a captive audience. It sucks. Would you pay $450,000 to live above Pottery Barn?
nobody's hero
New Member
I love the song. If he hadn't lived there and the song was an "I hate America-song" it would be too easy, but since he has actually lived there for a long time and he also says "I love you" I think the song is just perfect!
DAnn Coulter
Banned
I know you hate me (I 've done nothing bad to you really) but I agree with this 100%......
END OF THREAD!
D
Dave
Guest
Nobody closes cases around here but me - Archie Bunker
PregnantForTheLastTime
Hideous trait.
"In the news this week was Tony Blair criticising the media for painting too negative a picture of politics and politicians. Not only criticising the media for what they write about, but also how they interpret it.
But the people have become disillusioned with politicians because they KNOW they have been lied to and dislike being told what they aught to think or do.
Britain is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, along with the US, yet between 20 to 30% of the nation’s children are raised in poverty. People do join the army to get an education. And the quality of education in some schools is shockingly poor. The best teachers have left the profession in droves because they no longer have the authority to discipline effectively, and because the Curriculum is test-results oriented, not flexible enough for children’s different learning styles and needs.
When big corporations are seen to award breathtaking salaries to their top executives, yet get away with fraud and tax evasion on a massive scale, what incentive is there for Joe Bloggs to be entirely honest about his tax returns?
Where state unemployment support, according to a EU report, does not cover even 50% of a persons most basic needs, and where minimum wage is not enforced people become “criminals” by not declaring all their income simply to survive. "
But the people have become disillusioned with politicians because they KNOW they have been lied to and dislike being told what they aught to think or do.
Britain is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, along with the US, yet between 20 to 30% of the nation’s children are raised in poverty. People do join the army to get an education. And the quality of education in some schools is shockingly poor. The best teachers have left the profession in droves because they no longer have the authority to discipline effectively, and because the Curriculum is test-results oriented, not flexible enough for children’s different learning styles and needs.
When big corporations are seen to award breathtaking salaries to their top executives, yet get away with fraud and tax evasion on a massive scale, what incentive is there for Joe Bloggs to be entirely honest about his tax returns?
Where state unemployment support, according to a EU report, does not cover even 50% of a persons most basic needs, and where minimum wage is not enforced people become “criminals” by not declaring all their income simply to survive. "
Virtually every word of this is true of the US. Apparently once humans have enough to eat and to afford a nice tv, their morality goes down the dumper. And it is frustrating how it's hard to talk about morals and ethics without sounding like a whacko. And by the same token, I am getting freaking sick of my hetero marriage being used as a statistical weapon against gay marriage. Just because I chose to partake in a straight marriage doesn't mean I don't think everyone deserves the right to marry.
Wonderful conversation, thank you! Don't you think Moz would be happy he's inspired it all?
Oh, and today I was walking around Borders with one of my sons, and saw a guy in a Moz shirt! It was the Pizzeria de Carlo one, from the first leg of this tour. I was so tempted to say hi... and seeing him reminded me to go check out the Moz section, and I nearly bought YATQ, bad typography and all, because I realized I had not been fair to Moz in never listening to it fully. But then I realized I had already bought half the tracks individually via download, so the rest is downloading now. See? We can all learn and change.
DAnn Coulter
Banned
Nobody closes cases around here but me - Archie Bunker
That racist homophobic fat bastard was so funny... he led to way to Homer Simpson.
A
Alcoholic Afternoons
Guest
That happens at the federal level as well. I think it's called "zero-based budgeting." You commonly hear "we need to spend this before the end of the budget year" because if it's not, the department would be deemed not to need it, and the next year's budget for that department would be cut, so the incentive is to waste money to protect next year's budget. The same dynamic has the potential to happen in pollution cutting measures. Incentive programs for cutting emissions, or emissions credit selling, often benefit those that have established a high degree of current pollution rather than those that have already voluntarily reduced emissions, unless the baseline is set appropriately and properly credits past (voluntary) good behavior.
In response to Busy Clippers, I think the real reason the topic of morals and shame smacks of religion (and is thereby deemed "fundamentalism" and other bad words) is that the religious community has been one of the few that has, generally speaking, attempted to maintain morals and use shame when deemed appropriate. I think a lot of that happened to shame and morals in the "freedom" movement of the late 60's, and that the baby got thrown out with the bathwater to some extent. A lot of useful social norms were thrown out in the social revolution against a lot of bad social norms.
Now, for example, we can't even express disgust with a depiction of a cartoon character appearing to ejaculate on kids without being called fascist. (Okay, I'll let that go now.)
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