*This Charming Man is played

Dave Fanning: There are those, with regard to your music, that would maintain that you broke a lot of people’s hearts, and that basically you didn’t say sorry- is that a good thing?
Morrissey: I never felt sorry. So, why would I be saying sorry?

DF: Well, maybe your fans never wanted it any other way.
M: It doesn’t look as if they do, really. So why on earth I’d be sorry, I really don’t know.

DF: Okay, I am gonna throw, not one of your own quotes, but somebody did say that your favourite pose is to ‘affect the certainty of the doomed’. Is that really….(Morrissey laughs)…I mean, do you have a laugh?
M: All the time…I mean, it’s never unfunny, really…so those kind of things are part of the laugh. They’re quite amusing, when people say things like that. But what they’re talking about..let it be.

DF: Okay, but what would be your main instinct towards fellow humans? A lot of people would want to interact and check out…would you have basic mistrust?
M: Yeah, I’m very cautious, it takes me a very long time with people, a very long time. And eh…I think it’s safest to mistrust people, really…then the disappointment a few days later is somewhat softened.

DF: Right. ‘Cos after The Smiths, in the ’90’s, you have written all about life and it’s trivialities and it’s complexities...the same as what you did before, in some ways. Is that just it? Like….that’s your art, you want to reflect yourself and who you are, in your own surroundings?
M: Yes, yes, I think so, ‘cos I find it interesting.

DF: Okay, I mentioned a defensive weapon earlier on- is humour a defensive weapon?
M: Yes, absolutely. Humour is a weapon- completely a weapon. And eh…thank God.

DF: Okay. You did once say…(Morrissey chuckles)…okay, I’ll stop at this one, but your greatest weakness was your unsociability.
M: Erm…it was when we last met, which was about 17 years, so it’s not like that now. I’ve blossomed and bloomed.

DF: But would that- your unsociability- have been one of the reasons that you liked Johnny Marr? ‘Cos a lot of people kind of….they stuck to Johnny, they liked him, and you liked that too..
M: Well, yeah- but I don’t think anybody stuck to him for the reasons I did- it was a completely unique relationship. I thought his music combined sorrow and happiness. I thought it was very, very sad music- even the jovial tunes that he produced, I thought, had a tinge of terrible sadness. And he appears on the surface to be very humorous and very…very…happy, but in the music I hear sort of…pangs of sadness and that really drew me to his music. And I don’t think anybody really views it that way. I think they just think it’s ‘jingly-jangly’ and it’s um…perky. But..

DF: But what did you used to do? Did you used to have lyrics and say “Johnny, will you put some guitar on that?”
M: No, never, never. He simply gave me the music and then I began to hum. And then suddenly I’m saying the words.

DF: And do you get to do both jobs now?
M: No, no…it’s still pretty much the same. Still pretty much the same…but not with Johnny.

DF: No indeed.
M: You’ve noticed. (Laughs)

DF: (Laughs) Do you say that wistfully?
M: Oh, I just say it, you know….it just rolls off the tongue.

DF: Do you find it difficult to understand why so many people go through life alone?
M: No, I think everybody’s alone. They just don’t know it or they won’t admit it. Everybody’s alone. They have to be. We come in by ourselves, we go by ourselves.

DF: But then, what I mean is do you find it a privilege to live alone in some ways…
M: I do…

DF: And not have the burden of having to feel like you have to have somebody with you?
M: Yeah, I do…I do find it a privilege. I feel I have a very privileged life now, because I can live alone and I don’t have to put up with anything. Which is extraordinary. ‘Cos I think lots of people are trapped in relationships and so forth…

DF: What I mentioned earlier…sad, possessed…can I say ‘sad, possessed and proud of it?”
M: Can you?

DF: Yeah, I mean, would it go that far?

M: What, for yourself? (Laughs)

DF: No, no, for you..
M: (Laughing) You’re very free to say that for yourself, I won’t argue. Umm..I don’t feel sad, I really don’t! I absolutely swear, I don’t feel sad. I mean, people say..lots of people think I’m miserable and I don’t have a sense of humour but when people say that, what they really mean is ‘You don’t have THEIR sense of humour’, so erm..my philosophy is, um….sod them.

*Heaven Knows I’m Miserable Now is played

DF: When you used to read all these magazines, as a teenager, and take in every single thing in the NME that was read and you’d write to them giving out about inaccuracies and all that sort of stuff…when they started doing this with YOU (Morrissey laughs) and ten pages a week, every bloody week for five years…
M: Yes, yes…(laughing)

DF: How did you feel when they started going on about how ‘nobody embodies the spirit of ‘80’s alienation like Morrissey does’ and that…it’s just like “yeah they’ve got it in one”….did you realise then that suddenly a lot of this writing might be a bit silly?
M: Well, unfortunately when you do read wonderful things about yourself, you do want to believe some of it, to be truthful. But are we ever objective about ourselves, I don’t know.. It’s just…I don’t collect any printed matter, now. Anything written about me, I don’t collect it. But, certainly earlier on, it’s fascinating to be dissected, because this is really all you’ve ever wanted and there, it happens…and it’s fascinating because I began to buy the music press in 1969 and I would never miss. And if I’d go on holiday, I’d order everything, so that when I returned 6 weeks later, there were 75 magazines waiting for me. And I was more than a typical pop kid, I was just dangerously obsessed with all that. And given the alternatives in life, it’s not been so bad.

DF: And when they did write about you, did they get it right?
M: Nah…no, never.

DF: Were they even interesting?
M: Yes, yes they were, because so many of the statements were so outlandish that that becomes interesting, but eh..I don’t think they ever get it right, ever. And even recently, I’m described as ‘overweight’ and er…they live in a world of their own. Absolutely.

DF: Yeah. In a generalised way about your own writing and the songs that you write, you kind of get the intensity of a feeling, but at the same time, you convey this kind of… irony within that intensity of a feeling, if you like. Is that…
M: Mmmm, yes.

DF: Yeah, that’s pretty good. Like, people know exactly…the Morrissey fans know exactly what I’m talking about here.
M: Yes, yes.

DF: Is that the way it is?
M: It IS the way it is, and it’s just really having the nerve or the guts to laugh at your own situation or your own shortcomings, or admitting at least, that they’re there. You know…’cos….lots of people don’t.

DF: You did a gig recently where you played a song on stage - ‘Late Night, Maudlin Street’ and you dedicated it…or you mentioned Katrin Cartlidge, who died recently…
M: Oh yes, yes…

DF: ‘Career Girls’ etc…was she someone who you thought had a great future in her, or…
M: I think there’s no doubt that she would have…and I was absolutely shocked by her death...she was 41. I thought she had a great screen presence and er…one of the very few modern British actors who I thought really had ‘it’ and it’s just terribly sad, terribly sad…but life..life is very weird…

DF: And do you look upon - do you look to the cinema, do you look to acting, the same way as I would suggest that you might because of the covers, of Smiths covers and all the rest of it?
M: Yeah, I always have, I always have…and I’ve always watched films with the sound down and listened to music at the same time and been very enhanced by…been very entranced by just the moving image, but yes…always film, from a very early age. But again, it’s very difficult to talk about because I was always so critical, so erm…but yes..

DF: Is there a comfort zone, Morrissey, that you like to kind of…maybe…get to, with a lot of things..I mean, comfortable is a word you’ve used a lot, like…you’re not comfortable flying, ‘the greatest comfort is solitude’ you’ve said, you’re not comfortable as being seen as weird, that’s fine by you…is there a certain thing of it? A level of where you want to be and comfort is really describing it?
M: Well…yes, it’s the point whereby you can look after yourself, because you understand yourself and eh…does that make sense? Yes?

DF: Yeah, it does, yeah..
M: And it must just be one of those old hoary, with a ‘h’, age things, whereby you simply understand yourself and at the same time, when you reach that point, you realise that you’re not so bad after all.

*What Difference Does It Make? is played

DF: Do you feel that the best of your songs will never date? I mean, I look back on a lot of programmes, of ‘I Love The 1980’s’ or whatever…it’s astonishing just how dreadful so much of it is…I’m quite proud of the fact that I often said a lot of the stuff was dreadful…like when you were starting out, you were coming in towards the tail end of say, New Romantics and all that kind of stuff….and to a song, it was just awful…well, 95% of it was anyway…and a lot of your songs had a serious test of time about them, like, they will stand it…
M: Yes.

DF: And you know this, don’t you?
M: I know this because they are songs and the back catalogue sells very well and has never stopped selling very, very well. And it’s because they are real songs.

DF: And those songs, now, mean an awful lot to you, maybe more than you buried them a little bit in the early 90’s…a little bit.
M: Well…

DF: You felt you had to.
M: Well, what could I really have done? I mean, could I have just… ran around singing all of them at the same time? Not really…No, they’ve never left me. They’ve never left me at all. I think they’re very powerful and I think they’re here to stay…and nothing to do with trend and nothing to do with hype, and nothing to do with some executive pushing them in the public’s face and I think it’s just down to…it has ALWAYS been up to…left, simply to people to discover and like or dislike the songs. Nobody’s ever been steam-rolled into accepting me or The Smiths- it’s always been word of mouth and just…which is the best way.

DF: Sure, but one of the things that was good about what you did in the’90’s was you had a solo career that was barrelling along quite nicely and everything was going fine- and then The Smiths stingrays suddenly hit again in terms of court cases etc- which are still going on.
M: Yes.

DF: Do you ever want to just bury it?
M: Eh…it’s never up to me, because I didn’t initiate the court case. So, I’m always just defending myself. And the person who is constantly on the attack, which is the Smiths drummer, doesn’t stop. It’s his career, it’s his lifestyle, to squeeze as much money from the memory of The Smiths as possible, so he just attacks me every day. And even at the Royal Albert Hall last week, he was sending all his little lawyers out to stand at the stage door and try and get the money that we earned at the Royal Albert Hall! And just issue all these writs…of course, he fails all the time, but he doesn’t stop. And umm..there’s been a few television programmes about The Smiths and he’s always there, talking about me all the time…it’s pathetic.

DF: So, has your faith in human nature been more damaged by what’s happened in court?
M: Not really, because I think I didn’t really have much faith in human nature…so it was simply…verifying everything that I had secretly assumed, to be truthful….

DF: Okay, but see, Morrissey, you didn’t want The Smiths to break up, but you didn’t argue, you didn’t cry, you didn’t plead with Johnny when he decided to suddenly leave -you were shocked, just…that was the only bit of emotion that you showed..
M: Yes.

DF: Was there any…looking back, could you have argued?
M: No. And I would never plead with anybody, for anything. So…no.

DF: What I’m trying to find out is, where is his position in the whole Smiths….that court case debacle at the moment?
M: Well, I mean…first of all, I think he benefited from The Smiths breaking up, because his profile became higher and people suddenly wanted to talk to him and ask him about it…so, in one way, what he did helped him. As far as the court case…um…he..in very basic principle supported me, but when he was in the….when he was being cross-examined, he didn’t. And the feeling from his legal representatives was “Well, maybe we can blame Morrissey ENTIRELY on this case and maybe this judge will deem Morrissey the one who was completely responsible, and not Morrissey/Marr, so Morrissey will have to pay all this money”. So, he deserted me, which…not for the first time.

DF: I was just going to say, has he ever rung up about the solo albums and said “Well done, that’s pretty good” or “That’s crap”, or..
M: Never once.

DF: Hasn’t he?
M: Never ever once, no.

DF: So you’re really gonna be on your own if those two guys are out there and Johnny...I always thought Johnny would be a good referee, if nothing else?
M: No, no..no…he doesn’t support me at all, unfortunately.

DF: And when, like..the law- do you think it’s possible to get justice, with the way the legal system is in Britain these days?
M: Well, I only have experience with that court case, and the judge was completely wayward. And Joyce walked into the court room with NO EVIDENCE at all, of his claim…I mean, his claim should never have made the High Court..

DF: Which is, ‘That I should get 25% of The Smiths’ live stuff’
M: Yes, which is a claim he didn’t bring until The Smiths were well and truly broken up.

DF: And there was no contract?
M: There was no contract, but he had always received 10%, which was very generous- he always KNEW he was receiving 10%, he accepted it, he was always happy, and throughout The Smiths’ existence, he never raised any objection, so by his actions, that is a contract.

DF: It’s terrible sad, isn’t it?
M: Er…well people are just obsessed with money and Joyce has no career, so he just lives off me.

DF: But how much was motivated by revenge, or is it 90% money?
M: I think it’s all about money, nothing else.

*The More You Ignore Me, The Closer I Get is played, followed by Hold On To Your Friends

DF: Johnny left, Mike destroyed The Smiths, and then Andy was still trying to remember his own name, was the phrase that was used kind of thing…I mean, you once said that they could be replaced in the same way that you can replace parts of a lawnmower and let’s be honest, there’s a point to that- it’s the Paul Weller/Jam thing again, I mean- you’re allowed say that, you know?
M: Well, y’know, I never actually said that.

DF: Oh. (Laughs)
M: (Laughs) But..the QC who cross-examined me in the court- HE made that statement and it was his view that I would feel that I would feel that they could be replaced like bits of a lawnmower- but the way he said it in the court, and the way it was accepted in the court statements was that it was from me, but it wasn’t from me at all. But I’m not saying that I disagree with it.

DF: Right, yeah. But the point I’m trying to get to here is that you did it all- you did all the Press, the promotions, you got the covers together, you wrote the damn stuff, you were the man, you were the pressure….and you know….it’s bad form, to say the very least, what’s going on.
M: Well, it is.

DF: And that’s why I can understand your obsession with this….and I wouldn’t call it an obsession…you’re going to the European Court Of Human Rights with this.
M: Yes. But you see, it’s very difficult when you stand up in a court and you tell the truth and a judge says you’re lying…that’s very, very difficult to live with. And when Joyce stands up and he lies, and the judge says you’re telling the truth…I mean, that’s absurd. And you would think that a judge would be intelligent enough to be able to judge…but this judge was obviously very wayward and he wanted to do something outrageous and give an outrageous verdict, which he did.

DF: Morrissey is anarchic, he’s a free spirit, he’s talented, in a field that these guys know nothing about. They- more than these two ex-Smiths people- were out to get you. Isn’t that really the bottom line?
M: Yes…well, it’s the bottom line and the only way they can get me is financially. They can’t do anything else to me and it’s all the spite of “How dare you go on and leave us behind?” Umm…and even, there was a MASSIVE witness evidence, written evidence against Joyce…a massive evidence which the judge just went “pfffffft”, which is illegal, really. But there’s no way you can get a judge. A judge can say “The Queen of England is…er…is African” and all these appeal judges will say “Well, yes, of course she’s African. It’s absurd to think she’s anything else”. It’s an incredible system. And all these judges are incredibly old, they’re all white, they’re all male, they all know nothing about real life as you or I may know about it, and they’re incredibly blinkered. They live in a world of their own and they’re answerable only to God and they’re untouchable by any…there’s no sort of complaints commission that will check a judge…nothing at all. So a judge can say whatever he or she likes, and they can do whatever they like. And there’s many instances in British criminal history where judges made atrocious decisions and allow killers to go out and kill again. But the judges are never reprimanded in any way. And there are a couple of complaints commissions in England like the Lord Chancellor and the Bar Council who accept, and are supposed to deal with complaints against judges- but they don’t. They just accept, or they gather all your evidence and your information, then they reply and reject your case without saying why. So, it’s an absolute shambles.

DF: I’m still just surprised that Johnny hasn’t rung you about all of this, or talked to you about all of this, I’m just…
M: Never. Even that fact alone, that we had never discussed it before the court case is practically illegal really, in England, because if you have a conflict of opinion, and you’re both supposedly defending a case, it shouldn’t happen. But this judge just brushed everything aside and said “Joyce is equal to Morrissey in every way” and even when Joyce stood up and said something nice about me in the court, the judge completely twisted it and made it negative and…so, the judge was completely corrupt.

*Please, Please, Please, Let Me Get What I Want is played

DF: Now, around the same time that this broke, you were touring with David Bowie and you called off the gigs with 20 minutes to go before you went on stage- was that a personal thing, or…? It wasn’t that you were playing with one of your heroes and he turned out to be a pain in the neck?
M: Well, not really…I mean …he was very odd to me. And he asked me to sing a few of his songs in my set, which I thought was wrong. And then after a few nights, he asked to join me during my set, which I thought was wrong, and I said ‘I can’t do this’. And then he would ask me if he could come on at the end and he would appear and I would disappear, so there would be no end and there would be no encore for me…

DF: And this wasn’t worked out well before the tour?
M: Not at all, not at all..

DF: This was during the tour, as a change?
M: Yes. And so therefore when we played in Dublin and I had gone off and he came on, and a lot of the crowd were still calling my name, and he was doing his set and he said “Don’t worry, Morrissey will be back later” but I was 100 miles down the road…. I just thought it was a bit showbizzy and I thought, “Well, this is really David Showie” and I thought, no.

DF: Sounds a bit like ‘once bitten, twice shy’, you won’t really be doing that again too soon, will you?
M: Well, I’m sure he wouldn’t ask me, but even if he…

DF: No, but with somebody else like that, it doesn’t really…sharing…
M: There’s only one or two people that I could try it with.

DF: Who would you like to…oh.
M: I’d imagine they’d never ask, so..

DF: Who would you like to try it with?
M: No! (Laughs) Who would I like to try it with? We’ll skip that question (laughs)

DF: Ok, let’s skip that question…listen, just one or two more little small things…Oasis has a backdrop of a British flag on their stage…the Spice Girls did the same thing. You did it before all that and you were called racist. Do you ever think they’re out to get you?
M: Well, they simply were. I don’t think anybody thought I was remotely racist. I mean, the NME put me on the cover and said “He is racist”. But I think if the NME really believed I was racist, they wouldn’t stick me on the cover, because groups who really ARE racist, they don’t receive any attention in the media, so I think it would be really irresponsible of the NME or anybody who believed I was racist, to stick me all over the place, saying “he’s racist”- because then I could capitalise upon it and get all of these people together and do all of these…fascinating things. But I’ve never felt remotely racist, and I don’t think people ever believed I was. But the editor of the NME at the time wanted to get rid of me and they find something…I never responded to them and it went on and on and on and on…and they blew it up, and they had to make it more, because otherwise, they would look very, very silly. And I think eventually they did look silly- I think the NME in the ‘90’s declined- they lost lots of readers. People no longer had any faith in the weekly press- and look at the weekly music press now- it’s gone! And the NME are struggling for their lives! Mind you, they have a new editor now, and they have new writers, but in the ‘90’s, it was…the NME just killed itself.

DF: Okay, but finally, what about music that you’ve got now- I mean- what’s this latino thing- are you into that kind of music big time?
M: Well, um…I’ve been in Los Angeles for four years now and it’s…

DF: How’s your neighbour Johnny Depp?
M: Well, we just um..

DF: Hang! (Laughs)
M: Chat over the wall every day and…

DF: Bring out the washing.. (laughs)
M: Hang out…um…it’s a hugely Hispanic community, and very interesting, very soothing. Very nice people. The music is very passionate and high-spirited and I like that. So, that’s just become an influence for me. But once again, most of the so-called ‘latino’ artists who make it big world-wide really have nothing to say. Same old story, really. You can only really get that far if it’s all ‘lowest common denominator’ and it’s so basic that it’s…I mean, how many people do you know that can fill a stadium and say something really useful or stir you, or start you? How many people do you know?

DF: Well there’s a handful I suppose, all right…I mean, there may be only a handful…
M: How big is your hand, though, that’s the question.

DF: Yeah, that’s the question, all right, okay (laughing)….Morrissey, thanks a million for talking to us and good luck on the road, and we look forward to album number ten.
M: Thank you so much.

DF: Thanks.

*How Soon Is Now? is played

End of Part 2.