Explosive Kegs

[AlbertFinney]

Far from me to jump into an argument!

Just an aside on Brokeback Mountain. I personally thought it was one of the most boring films that I've seen in a fair old while. It seemed to me that it was wholly reliant on the shock value of the gay scenes to carry it. It all seemed a bit "Basic Instinct" to me. From somebody who doesn't necessarily have an aversion to Porn I'm a bit prudish when it comes to sex in films. I very rarely see the point in a most sex scenes that I see in films and it kind of irritates me when a film gives such significance to a sex scene and yet pays little attention to the rest of the film. To describe Brokeback Mountain as plodding would be flattery.

Anyway, I'm quite fond of "Dear God" but I also prefer my songs without sexual references in them.

I'm not typically English at all!

 

[alainsane]

Thank you, Math. Thanks for quoting us the part of the original text proving the author intended for Ennis to be a complete novice at anal sex. That the author then decided to describe the act of anal sex as "no manual needed" only illustrates *HER* lack of understanding of the act. It doesn't prove that that the act is as simple as depicted on the screen.

I wonder if Ms. Annie Proulx ever performed anal sex on anyone or had it performed on her. I would conclude from her "no instruction manual needed" assertion that she's done both. Otherwise, she'd be lying. Authors never lie, though. They never weave a thousand little lies into their works...do they?

Great job on your selective reading of Math's post, Dazzak! In your haste to shove a spitless flag of victory into your barren hilltop, you completely ignored Math's observation that there's "skill involved in making sure that it actually ends up inside." I suppose Ennis just gleaned this skill through osmosis? Witchcraft?

 

[PashernatePoet]

Thank you, Math. Thanks for quoting us the part of the original text proving the author intended for Ennis to be a complete novice at anal sex. That the author then decided to describe the act of anal sex as "no manual needed" only illustrates *HER* lack of understanding of the act. It doesn't prove that that the act is as simple as depicted on the screen.

I wonder if Ms. Annie Proulx ever performed anal sex on anyone or had it performed on her. I would conclude from her "no instruction manual needed" assertion that she's done both. Otherwise, she'd be lying. Authors never lie, though. They never weave a thousand little lies into their works...do they?

Great job on your selective reading of Math's post, Dazzak! In your haste to shove a spitless flag of victory into your barren hilltop, you completely ignored Math's observation that there's "skill involved in making sure that it actually ends up inside." I suppose Ennis just gleaned this skill through osmosis? Witchcraft?

I have a feeling this thread may have gone off topic and far from interest now. Why bother with this argument???

Anyway, those kegs. I think it's a great line. Surely Morrissey has always turned potential love songs into something a bit more Carry On.

 

[Math Tinder]

Thank you, Math. Thanks for quoting us the part of the original text proving the author intended for Ennis to be a complete novice at anal sex. That the author then decided to describe the act of anal sex as "no manual needed" only illustrates *HER* lack of understanding of the act.

I think it's meant to illustrate Ennis' 'understanding' of the act...

It doesn't prove that that the act is as simple as depicted on the screen.

Well of course not. The screen is not real life.

xo, math+

 

[realitybites]

I wish I could quit this thread.

 

[alainsane]

It took me thirty seconds of Googling to turn up a similar debate from back in December.

http://www.exgaywatch.com/blog/archives/2005/12/all_things_brok.html


Poster, Mark, provides a gay man's perspective on the scene in question.

A good film, but it's very unlikely that two sexually naive young men in the 1960's would engage in anal intercourse the first time they had sex, using only spit as a lubricant. Ouch! And why, oh why, do films and TV continue to promote the myth that all gay men like to f*** each in in the butt? (QAF was an awful offender.)

A million gay men have gotten HIV or AIDS, almost all of them from anal intercourse, and this dangerous form of sex is still promoted. (Yes, I know about condoms, but they are not foolproof and anal penetration can still cause a lot of health problems.)

Posted by: Mark at December 13, 2005 07:58 PM


Here is a listing from over at Dave Cullin's site that can guide you where to see the flick:
http://blogs.salon.com/0001137/stories/2005/12/13/brokebackMountainTheaters.html
Cullen's site is a good source of info on the picture and it's successes.

Posted by: Timothy at December 13, 2005 08:53 PM


Well...perhaps you should ask Annie Proulx why she wrote the story the way she did, rather than wonder about why this film portrays their lovemaking the way it does. I get the impression from what Lee says about making the movie, that he just wanted to be faithful to the story. And as for anal sex...men have been figuring that one out on their own for thousands, and thousands of years..."no instruction manual needed". I don't think the movie (or the story) is about promoting any specific kind of sexual activity, but rather it is just making it clear to the reader/viewer that the two lovers had an intimate sexual relationship. We don't ever question why in "straight" love scenes we aren't shown the lovers reaching for the KY. It's just not essential to the flow of the story.

Posted by: Jay at December 13, 2005 08:59 PM


Mark, it's in the movie because of this line from the story:
"“Jesus Christ, quit hammerin and get over here. Bedroll’s big enough,” said Jack in an irritable sleep-clogged voice. It was big enough, warm enough, and in a little while they deepened their intimacy considerably. Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock. Ennis jerked his hand away as though he’d touched fire, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours, and, with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, entered him, nothing he’d done before but no instruction manual needed. They went at it in silence except for a few sharp intakes of breath and Jack’s choked “Gun’s goin off,” then out, down, and asleep."
(sorry for the crude language)
The entire story as it ran in the New Yorker can be found here:
http://www.newyorker.com/printables/archive/051212fr_archive01
In the colection of stories named Close Range: Wyoming Stories, there are a couple additional paragraphs Proulx added at the beginning (in italics). Either version requires tissues.

Posted by: Timothy at December 13, 2005 09:21 PM


Sure, the scene is faithful to the short story, but is it faithful to reality? No. It's very unlikely that two sexually naive young men in Wyoming in the 1960's would have engaged in anal penetration the first time they had sex. Proulx is misinformed if she thinks that sticking your erect penis in a hole used for defecation comes naturally to many men. I'm a gay man, and although I knew about the practice as a teenager, I certainly did not find it appealling. Only after being out for a full year did I try anal penetration, and it took a lot of lube and relaxation to make it tolerable. If I had bent over and taken it in the ass with no lube the first time I had sex, like it is depicted in the film, you would have heard me scream from here to Los Angeles, and not with pleasure.

A director is entitled to make changes to a story and I'm sorry, it was irresponsible for Lee to put Miss Proulx's absurd sex scene in his film. With 500,000 gay men dead of AIDS and 500,000 infected anything that might cause young gay men to think that getting f***ed in the ass is something that comes naturally to gay men is irresponsible, whether Lee realizes it or not.

And yes, I know about condoms. They are not 100% effective and anal penetration is a vector for numerous other diseases and can easily damage your rectum. I know that from personal experience.

If you know anything about gay history, you will know that anal penetration was not all that widespread between gay men before the 1970's, even in urban areas. In fact, in the old days men who engaged in ass f***ing were often derided by other gay men as "brownie queens." Now you are considered weird, square, or "too vanilla" if you don't do it.

Posted by: Mark at December 14, 2005 01:37 AM

 

[dazzak]

I think the only lesson we've learned from this thread is that Alainsane is a sad bastard.

 

[Right Whinger]

You do realize that he said those lyrics are not from his perspective. So he's not having sex!

I did not know this, where did you read/hear that mate?

 

[Math Tinder]

Re: Brokeback Mountain, film + story

This post is not about Morrissey, I'm sorry. Ok.

--
Guys! Annie Proulx's writing, particularly in Close Range (the collection containing Brokeback Mountain), is intentionally over-the-top.

Well before I even get to that, I should first say that I have personally know several men/boys who 'jumped right into' anal sex, more-or-less as their first act of intercourse, while using only spit as lubricant. I know a 28-year-old gay boy who _STILL ONLY_ uses spit as lube when he assf***s. I swear to god that people do this. It's really not as rare as some seem to think.

But!! Let's say that initial sex scene actually IS unlikely, ludicruous, unbelievable, however you want to call it. Well, long before that happens in Brokeback Mountain, the story, you get this:

--
Ennis, reared by his older brother and sister after their parents drove off the only curve on Dead Horse Road, leaving them twenty four dollars in cash and a two mortgage ranch, applied at age fourteen for a hardship license that let him make the hour long trip from the ranch to the high school. The pickup was old, no heater, one windshield wiper, and bad tires; when the transmission went, there was no money to fix it. He had wanted to be a sophomore, felt the word carried a kind of distinction, but the truck broke down short of it, pitching him directly into ranch work.
--

A two-mortgage ranch? All that business about the pickup and not finishing school? But above all, THE ONLY CURVE ON DEAD HORSE ROAD?

Brokeback Mountain is a story told in the extreme, in every respect. Anyone who thinks it's meant to represent 'what gay relationships are really like' or somesuch severely misunderstands the story (in, of course!, my humble opinion ). Yes, I understand that the film adaptation of Brokeback Mountain was accepted as The Mainstream Gay Movie of 2005. But y'know what? The film is better than that and shouldn't have to answer to it.

Mind, I'm not even a Proulx or Brokeback Mountain fan... but Brokeback Mountain is Jack and Ennis againist the world, not 'Jack and Ennis, the sometime gay couple'.

Just my opinion.

xo, math+

 

[Worm]

Hate to arrive at the rear of a debate (sorry), but I just wanted to add that some of the movie's critics seem to have missed the key point of the scene, which is that Ennis's not needing a "user's manual" was Proulx/Lee's way of showing that the act was natural. Ennis's entry tactic may be unusual, but certainly plausible. It's of a piece with the flim's basic intention, which is to demonstrate that homosexuals are just as natural and normal as heterosexuals. Birds do it, bees do it, Wyoming cowboys do it. The setting is Edenic for a reason.

 

[Dupree]

Gosh, I have just learnt so much. I was certainly not expecting that overload of information from this thread. What a small world I live in.

This thread has opened my eyes!